[11.1.5] He has had a change of heart - Syntax - 9/12/08

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######### Incoming transmission
######### Hovercraft Neo's Hope

To: EPN operatives
In re:Security Alert
Certain members of Libertas Verus attacked our operatives while in custody, and have escaped.

All EPN operatives are advised to be on the alert. They are presumed to be after their commander Pileus. Any other objectives they may have can not be verified at this time.


######### End transmission

Catalyn wrote:

######### Incoming transmission
######### Hovercraft Neo's Hope

To: EPN operatives
In re:Security Alert
Certain members of Libertas Verus attacked our operatives while in custody, and have escaped.

All EPN operatives are advised to be on the alert. They are presumed to be after their commander Pileus. Any other objectives they may have can not be verified at this time.


######### End transmission

Escaped huh...
Either EPN are incompetent in holding people in custody or EPN members allowed/helped in their escape. Or perhaps the capture of LV by EPN was simply a ruse. Any of these outcomes are entirely plausible. Any more innocent deaths by Libertas Verus and you will be partly to blame.

You act as if the Machine has never had someone escape their custody. Are we then to call it even more incompetent for letting the Effectuator (a high priority prisoner at the time) escape? And what about all those exiles that were to be deleted and managed to find a way into the Matrix. The General, Apothecary, The Assassin to name a few. All hardly without blemished hands, that by your logic, the Machine has part of the blame for. 

Check the log in your own eye dear before you going pointing the dust in another's.

You act as if the Machine has never had someone escape their custody. Are we then to call it even more incompetent for letting the Effectuator (a high priority prisoner at the time) escape? And what about all those exiles that were to be deleted and managed to find a way into the Matrix. The General, Apothecary, The Assassin to name a few. All hardly without blemished hands, that by your logic, the Machine has part of the blame for. 

Check the log in your own eye dear before you going pointing the dust in another's.

GamiSB wrote:

You act as if the Machine has never had someone escape their custody. Are we then to call it even more incompetent for letting the Effectuator (a high priority prisoner at the time) escape? And what about all those exiles that were to be deleted and managed to find a way into the Matrix. The General, Apothecary, The Assassin to name a few. All hardly without blemished hands, that by your logic, the Machine has part of the blame for. 

Check the log in your own eye dear before you going pointing the dust in another's.

All of those had help in one form or another from outside parties, As far as I'm aware LV escaped on their own or with help from EPN themselves. Perhaps you should think about all the circumstances surrounding it for once before trying to compare with other events.

You assume that all the members of LV were captured at the time. The only ones we captured were the ones that make themselves known. Next time do some research before trying to make one group out to be incompetent. And on that note you still have yet to wash your hands clean of Morpheus and Smith. Two of the most dangerous "people" the Matrix has seen both of which were at one time held captive by the Machine. As well as The General for that matter.

You assume that all the members of LV were captured at the time. The only ones we captured were the ones that make themselves known. Next time do some research before trying to make one group out to be incompetent. And on that note you still have yet to wash your hands clean of Morpheus and Smith. Two of the most dangerous "people" the Matrix has seen both of which were at one time held captive by the Machine. As well as The General for that matter.

Oh, I'm very well aware that there may be some LV members in the EPN ranks, which only goes on to prove the inadequacy of the ability to keep any of their number in custody. I'd like to know when Smith was ever in the custody of the Machines, same with the General I don't recall him actually being a prisoner of the Machines. Morpheus was once as far as I'm aware but Zion, Neo facilitated his escape.

It seems as though even though the fault is squarely on EPN's shoulders you would prefer to continue the childish route of changing the subject rather than accept the unchangable fact that LV escaped because EPN could not hold them and could not even vet those who may have contact with them.

If your going to talk about inadequacy exactly how long have EPN, Zion and the Merv, been causing trouble for you? Again look at yourself before you start criticizing others.

 The General and Smith were both outdated programs that while not in custody were under the service of the Machines and thus the machines responsibility to terminate. The failure to do so and the results of their actions rest on the Machine's shoulders by the same logic your trying to accuse EPN to be the blame for LV and everything they do.

I am well aware that this is indeed EPN's fault that several LV members have escaped and don't recall ever saying other wise. I'm just pointing out that the Machine is hardly one to talk about such matters and certainly not fit to criticize us for something they themselves have been unable to fixed since the dawning of the Merv's empire.

The General and Smith were both outdated programs that while not in custody were under the service of the Machines and thus the machines responsibility to terminate. The failure to do so and the results of their actions rest on the Machine's shoulders by the same logic your trying to accuse EPN to be the blame for LV and everything they do.

Petty squabbles resolve nothing.  Isn't it more important to reacquire your captives than to debate over who is or is not qualified to call you on this blunder?  The fact of the matter remains...they escaped.  Deal with it.  Next time they're caught, they might not have such merciful captors.

Actually, I only stated that EPN were incompetent in holding LV in custody, had their own members help with LV's escape or the whole thing was a show by EPN to get some heat off LV's backs. So in any case I believe that any subsequent actions by LV are party EPN's fault.

As for your logic, following the same stipulations, The General and Smith did not escape Machine custody and, even though it's besides the point as for now I'll trust that LV weren't under the employ of EPN, they certainly weren't in the service of the Machines when they committed their actions. So by that logic the situation of EPN and LV is entirely different to the Machines and Smith/The General.

Plus FYI, I am not a Machine, nor do I speak for them. Still, it's funny how we're not fit to criticize, yet you're fully capable and right to do so.

As I have already said it is EPN's fault that LV members have escaped but also that the org you work for is hardly without its own share of problems in that same area and has no room to ride that high horse.

The General and Smith both escaped Machine termination. As for my logic its the same as your own, that because they were both apart of the Machine it was the machine's job to terminate them when necessary, the Machine failed to do so thus it is their fault party for the problems those programs caused. The situations are not different as they are both a failure on the part of the controlling group to maintain control and keep a potential problem in check. Replace Smith with LV, termination with captivity, and you have the exact same picture.

I never accused you of being a Machine, was speaking metaphorically. Lastly if you interpreted my words as criticism i apologize. my meaning was only to point out that the Machine, as well as any org, has no room to down cast another organization when it falters as they all have shown incompetence in all areas at one time or another.

 As for my logic

GamiSB wrote:

 As for my logic

Gami, when did you ever know logic?

Or perhaps the capture of LV by EPN was simply a ruse. Any of these outcomes are entirely plausible. 

Vinia wrote:

Or perhaps the capture of LV by EPN was simply a ruse. Any of these outcomes are entirely plausible. 

I've seen you make some ignorant comments regarding EPN previously, but I believe we have a winner with that little gem.

Ignorant? Really? LV splintered from EPN with many members of EPN still being sympathetic toward them and their cause, they were taken captive by EPN when only their leader was at risk and they subsequently escaped rather quickly and apparently easily from EPN. I'm sorry, but that qualifies as being rather suspect. Who knows how high their support in EPN goes.

So ignorance on my part? I would say I was considering very possible situations and despite eval's suggestion a gesture does not necessarily show underlying intentions.

However despite all this, I really do hope to be proven wrong, I hope that the reality is that EPN offered LV a way out which they blatently ignored and if so I will put up my hands and admit to being so when the LV situation has been laid to rest and I see appropriate evidence to that effect.

Petty squabbles resolve nothing.  Isn't it more important to reacquire your captives than to debate over who is or is not qualified to call you on this blunder?  The fact of the matter remains...they escaped.  Deal with it.  Next time they're caught, they might not have such merciful captors.

EPN did what they had to do in this situation and they captured a dangers man who could have destroyed the Matrix. The Machines and Cypherites really should be thankful to the EPN's instead.

And I recall something about Veil having people on the inside, who helped break her out....so...pardon my sarcasm when I go "OH NO! SOMEONE ESCAPED! THIS NEVER HAS HAPPENED BEFORE!"

In any normal societal justice system the average citizen or outsider would at least be aware through some type of publicity that a justice system EXISTS.

The thing I found most disturbing about this was Shimada's assertion that "it is all too easy to do what they did".  Really?  It's easy to go on a killing spree against innocents because you hate what they don't even know they're helping? 

I never claimed to understand the EPN mindset, and after hearing that, I doubt I ever will.

Illyria

The thing I found most disturbing about this was Shimada's assertion that "it is all too easy to do what they did".  Really?  It's easy to go on a killing spree against innocents because you hate what they don't even know they're helping? 

I never claimed to understand the EPN mindset, and after hearing that, I doubt I ever will.

Illyria

Then you are either trying too hard to wrap yourself in a sheath of logic, taking every word at literal face-value, or you are hell-bent on being as obtuse as possible. For it is quite clear to anyone having even a modicum of reading comprehension that she was drawing a distinction between these zealots and those true to the tenets of E Pluribus Neo.

See you around.

--posted by ShiXinFeng from an internet cafe in Baldwin Heights.