Cypherite Purpose

What is it?

All of this attention on the sleepwalkers has gotten me thinking about the Cypherites and the "re-insertion is not happening". There was a lot of griefing over this after Gray told Cryptos there was no chance. It killed a lot of Cyphs RP and, in fact, many of those who were blue-dyed-in-the-wool die hards still haven't returned to the game since that revelation.

Nowadays, the Cyphs are the murderous, radical arm of the Machines (if there are any RPers left among them). This seems kind of shallow to me. An organization that only exists for the sole purpose of destruction cannot sustain itself.

So, my question is, why can't the Cypherites keep "fighting' for reinsertion? I mean, just because Gray said it ain't happening, doesn't mean it ain't really happening. He could have been lying, and there is secretly a way to do it. Or, even if there is not, how about holding out hope agains the day that re-insertion is possible. After all, that's something the Machines would want too, right? 

Do Not Disturb; Sleeping

Protect the pills who sleep, may they rest forever

Cypherites exist beyond the need for reinsertion.  It is true that the organization began with such desires but it has evolved from that narrow-minded thinking.  Only the selfish wish to be reinserted when there is an abundance of opportunity to oppose those who would reawaken us or anyone still dependent upon the Matrix.

Cypherites serve as the enforcers of the Machine empire.  Our goals are to strongly oppose Zion and E Pluribus Neo.  We seek to hinder awakenings and keep them from moving forward by any means necessary.  We are not like the machinists who seek peace with Zion or an end to the war.  Yes, we are murderers, terrorists and cutthroats.  It is our nature.  We rebel against the rebellion and wish for a world where the ungrateful worms of the earth perish for their treason against the Machine.

We are your opposite.  We hate everything you stand for.  We want to see you perish miserably.

Cypherites exist beyond the need for reinsertion.  It is true that the organization began with such desires but it has evolved from that narrow-minded thinking.  Only the selfish wish to be reinserted when there is an abundance of opportunity to oppose those who would reawaken us or anyone still dependent upon the Matrix.

Cypherites serve as the enforcers of the Machine empire.  Our goals are to strongly oppose Zion and E Pluribus Neo.  We seek to hinder awakenings and keep them from moving forward by any means necessary.  We are not like the machinists who seek peace with Zion or an end to the war.  Yes, we are murderers, terrorists and cutthroats.  It is our nature.  We rebel against the rebellion and wish for a world where the ungrateful worms of the earth perish for their treason against the Machine.

We are your opposite.  We hate everything you stand for.  We want to see you perish miserably.

Ahem. You were saying, Tranque?

((Oooh, well played, well played! I just got goosebumps. Please tell me you're on Syntax, Wixard?))

We are your opposite. We hate everything you stand for. We want to see you perish miserably.

Why are you explaining to a Zionite why we exsist and do what we do? IMO if your not a cyph then you don't need to know our business. Yes I understand your curious from the storyline point but still. I mean what's the point of of bieng a cyph if your going to blab to others what your goal or the organizations goal is?

Wixard wrote:

We are your opposite. We hate everything you stand for. We want to see you perish miserably.

I say no more.

All of this attention on the sleepwalkers has gotten me thinking about the Cypherites and the "re-insertion is not happening". There was a lot of griefing over this after Gray told Cryptos there was no chance. It killed a lot of Cyphs RP and, in fact, many of those who were blue-dyed-in-the-wool die hards still haven't returned to the game since that revelation.

ShiXinFeng wrote:

All of this attention on the sleepwalkers has gotten me thinking about the Cypherites and the "re-insertion is not happening". There was a lot of griefing over this after Gray told Cryptos there was no chance. It killed a lot of Cyphs RP and, in fact, many of those who were blue-dyed-in-the-wool die hards still haven't returned to the game since that revelation.

What do you think Cryptos has been doing with his time?

ShiXinFeng wrote:

All of this attention on the sleepwalkers has gotten me thinking about the Cypherites and the "re-insertion is not happening". There was a lot of griefing over this after Gray told Cryptos there was no chance. It killed a lot of Cyphs RP and, in fact, many of those who were blue-dyed-in-the-wool die hards still haven't returned to the game since that revelation.

What do you think Cryptos has been doing with his time?

Working on finding a way to keep the Machines from overwriting people, like what happened to him. Said so in a recent LE.

First off your all delusional if you perceive any purpose in the Cypherite organization or your mixing OOC and IC. Go back and take a look at any Cypherite event after chapter eight. In every single one of them you can replace Veil or Cryptos with an Agent and there would be no change minus the rasta philosophical talk and drastic decrease in /bouncy with "dearie" after every sentence.

The organization has no purpose of its own. it is nothing more then a shell of what it once was and is just a way for those playing Machine to wear bandannas rather than suits and talk to a LE character that use conjunctions. Any "purpose" someone might find is nothing but their own opinion. All this "We hate everything you stand for, we are your opposite" talk is just how YOU want to play it. Not how the story does. Because the story has already made it very clear that the Cypherite org is just gonna be the tag along side kick of the Machine org.

First off your all delusional if you perceive any purpose in the Cypherite organization or your mixing OOC and IC. Go back and take a look at any Cypherite event after chapter eight. In every single one of them you can replace Veil or Cryptos with an Agent and there would be no change minus the rasta philosophical talk and drastic decrease in /bouncy with "dearie" after every sentence.

The organization has no purpose of its own. it is nothing more then a shell of what it once was and is just a way for those playing Machine to wear bandannas rather than suits and talk to a LE character that use conjunctions. Any "purpose" someone might find is nothing but their own opinion. All this "We hate everything you stand for, we are your opposite" talk is just how YOU want to play it. Not how the story does. Because the story has already made it very clear that the Cypherite org is just gonna be the tag along side kick of the Machine org.

GamiSB wrote:

First off your all delusional if you perceive any purpose in the Cypherite organization or your mixing OOC and IC. Go back and take a look at any Cypherite event after chapter eight. In every single one of them you can replace Veil or Cryptos with an Agent and there would be no change minus the rasta philosophical talk and drastic decrease in /bouncy with "dearie" after every sentence.

The organization has no purpose of its own. it is nothing more then a shell of what it once was and is just a way for those playing Machine to wear bandannas rather than suits and talk to a LE character that use conjunctions. Any "purpose" someone might find is nothing but their own opinion. All this "We hate everything you stand for, we are your opposite" talk is just how YOU want to play it. Not how the story does. Because the story has already made it very clear that the Cypherite org is just gonna be the tag along side kick of the Machine org.

I would suggest you go back and look for subtle clues since Cryptos's exorcism. Running Critical missions may enlighten you to the increased depth of the situation which  I feel you overlook.

Like what? I've run them, its still all the same. Cryptos and Veil can come out and say "We're not working for the Machines" all they want but they are still in fact helping the Machines more than they help themselves when it comes to the story. They are doing nothing that the Machine org itself could not do on its own. The goals are the same, the enemies are the same, the only differences between the two are the faces of the leaders. As i said, you can replace any event with Cryptos or Veil with an Agent and you would get a Machine event.

Case in point, there latest goal. Find a way to keep overdrive programs from harming the simulation. Hmm who would benefit the most form not having the Matrix go to hell every time one of the intruder guys showed up?

privaron0 wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

First off your all delusional if you perceive any purpose in the Cypherite organization or your mixing OOC and IC. Go back and take a look at any Cypherite event after chapter eight. In every single one of them you can replace Veil or Cryptos with an Agent and there would be no change minus the rasta philosophical talk and drastic decrease in /bouncy with "dearie" after every sentence.

The organization has no purpose of its own. it is nothing more then a shell of what it once was and is just a way for those playing Machine to wear bandannas rather than suits and talk to a LE character that use conjunctions. Any "purpose" someone might find is nothing but their own opinion. All this "We hate everything you stand for, we are your opposite" talk is just how YOU want to play it. Not how the story does. Because the story has already made it very clear that the Cypherite org is just gonna be the tag along side kick of the Machine org.

I would suggest you go back and look for subtle clues since Cryptos's exorcism. Running Critical missions may enlighten you to the increased depth of the situation which I feel you overlook.

Like what? I've run them, its still all the same. Cryptos and Veil can come out and say "We're not working for the Machines" all they want but they are still in fact helping the Machines more than they help themselves when it comes to the story. They are doing nothing that the Machine org itself could not do on its own. The goals are the same, the enemies are the same, the only differences between the two are the faces of the leaders. As i said, you can replace any event with Cryptos or Veil with an Agent and you would get a Machine event.

Case in point, there latest goal. Find a way to keep overdrive programs from harming the simulation. Hmm who would benefit the most form not having the Matrix go to hell every time one of the intruder guys showed up?

Nicho wrote:

Wixard wrote:

I am your opposite. I hate everything you stand for. I want to see you perish miserably.

I say no more.

Weren't you EPN? Oh wait...

Cypherite's are loyal to the simulation not the system. Ofcourse if the system has the simulation in its best interests in our eyes were going to work towards it.

You stated that since reinsertion was taken out that the organization lost depth. I fail to see how death threats to Cryptos from his controller Veil partaking in hostile negotiations with Agent Pace or asking for the jack in codes for his Operatives as a price for speaking with the Morpheus Simulcra is being their pawn.

Our organization benifits from amicable relations with the Machines they control both the lives of our families and freinds but also the place we eventually want to go back to if such a procedure could be found although I am not overly hopeful that any technlology could disect and revert the complex nature of the human brain.

We can argue about logistical relevancy at live events all day long. Rarebits a fan of foreshadowing and not spelling out the storyline. Let me assure you hints are there even people like me who disect every little detail trying to find meaning don't even know what they are fully yet but something big is brewing. Case in point the Oracle giving Veil that letter before she was attacked.

The simulation is run by the system. Thus anyone loyal to the simulation is inturn loyal to those running the system and by keeping said system alive are helping those that depend on it and run it. Again, they can say "we don't work for you" all they want but they are still indeed working for them like it or not.

Purpose is created by outside forces creating a reason for being and characters do not make the purpose. It is the purpose that makes up the character which is why we have the Cryptos and Veil of today. But nothing outside of themselves is changing that affects or changes the Cypherite purpose. There is no outside force attacking or guiding their organizations purpose and it has settled on this "We aren't Machinest but we are" story telling we have now. So it goes without saying that the drama Cryptos and Veil partake in or create does not add to the purpose of the organization or any depth to it. All it adds is more depth to the characters themselves.

It doesn't mater what kind of hints you find or events that happen between Crypros and Veil. Unless something comes that affects the Cypherite organization like reinsertion did and that gives them a reason for being that is different from the Machines then they still have no purpose of their own. They are just Machinist wearing bandannas and not suits as I said.

privaron0 wrote:

Cypherite's are loyal to the simulation not the system. Ofcourse if the system has the simulation in its best interests in our eyes were going to work towards it.

You stated that since reinsertion was taken out that the organization lost depth. I fail to see how death threats to Cryptos from his controller Veil partaking in hostile negotiations with Agent Pace or asking for the jack in codes for his Operatives as a price for speaking with the Morpheus Simulcra is being their pawn.

Our organization benifits from amicable relations with the Machines they control both the lives of our families and freinds but also the place we eventually want to go back to if such a procedure could be found although I am not overly hopeful that any technlology could disect and revert the complex nature of the human brain.

We can argue about logistical relevancy at live events all day long. Rarebits a fan of foreshadowing and not spelling out the storyline. Let me assure you hints are there even people like me who disect every little detail trying to find meaning don't even know what they are fully yet but something big is brewing. Case in point the Oracle giving Veil that letter before she was attacked.

The simulation is run by the system. Thus anyone loyal to the simulation is inturn loyal to those running the system and by keeping said system alive are helping those that depend on it and run it. Again, they can say "we don't work for you" all they want but they are still indeed working for them like it or not.

Purpose is created by outside forces creating a reason for being and characters do not make the purpose. It is the purpose that makes up the character which is why we have the Cryptos and Veil of today. But nothing outside of themselves is changing that affects or changes the Cypherite purpose. There is no outside force attacking or guiding their organizations purpose and it has settled on this "We aren't Machinest but we are" story telling we have now. So it goes without saying that the drama Cryptos and Veil partake in or create does not add to the purpose of the organization or any depth to it. All it adds is more depth to the characters themselves.

It doesn't mater what kind of hints you find or events that happen between Crypros and Veil. Unless something comes that affects the Cypherite organization like reinsertion did and that gives them a reason for being that is different from the Machines then they still have no purpose of their own. They are just Machinist wearing bandannas and not suits as I said.

My apologies, I forgot that subtlety is beyond the members of EPN.  As you were. 

Riiiiight.  Hnnnnnnnnnnnggghhhh!

Folks, this was an OOC thread. I really wanted to hear from people about where the Cyph RP has gone and how we might bring it back, so to speak. I really thought the idea of continuing to find a way to get reinserted was a good direction to take. Just because it's not possible now, doesn't mean it's impossible to accomplish.

I guess maybe this is best left to everyone's personal RP, though, instead of the main stroyline.

Your certianly entitled to your opinion but the fact remains idealogicly their are vast differences. Just because organizations work together even for prolonged periods of time does not mean their overall interests and or eventual goals are coinciding.

Look around the papers across the city they say the system is a lie I believe it is myself. I also believe that the reason Cryptos has made efforts to protect our organization is a healthy amount of well earned paranoia aimed at the machines after what they did to him.  You say that the organization is doing something Machinists could easily do our the Machines themselves. In a rescent critical mission it states that The Machines have never fully agressed the Merovingian also given the man he was modeled after I beleive their is some underlying significance for this action. However Cryptos has made it quite clear he has no qualms of directly starting aggressive movements towards The Merovingian and his interests if they are against the interests of bluepills still reliant on the simulation.

Cryptos is doing research to protect our interests not Machines.. he did not ask for Machinist jack in signature codes when he was requested to speak with the Morpheus Simulcra he asked for ours. Speak for yourself I can tell you right now that if the system comes crashing down Cypherites will be the most protected under any circumstance as a direct result of Cryptos and his work.

You also fail to recognize that Veil has attacked Machinists in the past. I believe shes alot less Machinist than you give her credit for her goals are simply put to do what she feels is right. Look at a rescent critical mission with Halborn she took control over the situation and attempted to make content feeling Machine operatives could not do the job properly themselves and she made it very clear she felt that way. Also what about the letter given to her? If she is so loyal to the Machines why has she not shared it?

What differences? You keep saying there are some but what and where are they? The ideals of the Cypherites is for the system to remain peaceful so the blues in it can sleep peacefully. This is the exact same ideal the Machine shares about bluepills and their system. I'm not using time to prove that they work together I'm using logic. You can't have two organizations with the same ideals and claim that one's purpose is different than the other. Their not, working towards the same goal for the same reasons is the same purpose.

Also again Cryptos character and the manor in which he does things is irrelevant to the Cypherite purpose. Just because Cryptos does things the Machines don't, doesn't make the org'r purpose uniqiue. It makes him unique but not the org. You could just as easily write in an Agent saying that it was time they did such and such and it world still work. Also the Machine has gone to war with the Merv and always has done so when he steps out of line.

Cryptos protecting your interests also protects the machines interest. This is the same as the "We aren't working for you, but we are" debate. When your goal helps another's goal you are indirectly helping and working with them. When your goal furthers another's goal you are indirectly helping achieve their purpose as well as your own. Because these two connections can be made between the Cypherites and Machines then their purposes are the same. Same for Veil, her character does NOT make the purpose for the org any different. Only makes her character stand out beyond the Machine/Cypherite purpose.

And I think you have misunderstood me. I am not saying that Cryptos and Veil are just Machinist. I'm saying that the Cypherite purpose is nothing more than a smaller part of the Machine purpose and thus pointless to really continue and hardly worth saying that they have their own. The two leaders are unique to the typical Machinist but they do not change this fact, the goal they work towards is just the same as the Machines. You could remove them from the story and insert in two more agents and have the exact same missions/events just without the feel those two characters give.

Folks, this was an OOC thread. I really wanted to hear from people about where the Cyph RP has gone and how we might bring it back, so to speak.

Ah, well I was reading through and I got the same impression that others must have gotten, which is an EPN member almost mocking the Cyphs on their apparent lack of purpose. In fact I was all geared up to state that Machinists deplore the use of Cypherites by the Machines until I read you latest post.

Perhaps a mention that you wanted this to be OOC and a discussion on ideas for Cyph RP and purpose etc.. in your first post would have prevented the IC posts.

I see what you're saying now though. Did Gray say that re-insertion wasn't possible for anyone or was that comment directed at Cryptos himself?

Again, why waste your time. This is just going to go back and forth about who is right and who is wrong. Just give it up and let EPN conjure up there own opinion. It's great that you want to enlighten everyone about cyph history or w/e but I seriously think your are wasting you time. Also you can't say what cyphs are and are not because not all factions are on the same page.

Because were OOC and any personal bias my chracter might of inserted in here was taken out, and any "secrets" you claim to have can just be found in the Mission archives and event recaps that allows anyone to see for themselves. Not to mention i put in a little less than a year in being a Cypherite when the game went live and do have a Cyph alt so I think I have a grasping of the Cypherite mindset.

Difference in opinions between factions are irrelevant when it comes to the story. They can have them sure, but they need to realize that it is just their opinion and that the story sooner or later may come down and beat them over the head making it clear that their opinion was wrong. See possibility of reinsertion.

Did Gray say that re-insertion wasn't possible for anyone or was that comment directed at Cryptos himself?

Gray said an I quote "There is no such procedure" after Cryptos requested to be reinserted.

Why people insist on making this out to be more than what is said I have no idea. Agents have never been one for masking their meanings. They mean what they say and that's it, no hidden meanings, no vague references.

I continue to laugh that when an Agent or the Architect says something most machinist start finding all these hidden meanings yet when a Zion LO or LE character says something they are strictly taken word for word.

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Folks, this was an OOC thread. I really wanted to hear from people about where the Cyph RP has gone and how we might bring it back, so to speak.

Ah, well I was reading through and I got the same impression that others must have gotten, which is an EPN member almost mocking the Cyphs on their apparent lack of purpose. In fact I was all geared up to state that Machinists deplore the use of Cypherites by the Machines until I read you latest post.

Perhaps a mention that you wanted this to be OOC and a discussion on ideas for Cyph RP and purpose etc.. in your first post would have prevented the IC posts.

I see what you're saying now though. Did Gray say that re-insertion wasn't possible for anyone or was that comment directed at Cryptos himself?

Well, I did kind of feel like since this was in the Character Development forum, and not the Next Ren or General forums, that it would kind of speak for itself. But...yeah.

Oh, and Gray says, "There is no such procedure."

What differences? You keep saying there are some but what and where are they? The ideals of the Cypherites is for the system to remain peaceful so the blues in it can sleep peacefully. This is the exact same ideal the Machine shares about bluepills and their system. I'm not using time to prove that they work together I'm using logic. You can't have two organizations with the same ideals and claim that one's purpose is different than the other. Their not, working towards the same goal for the same reasons is the same purpose.

You know, since the war started, the lines seperating EPN and Zion seem to have blurred. The System, Machinists and Cyphs are fighting Zion, Zionites and EPN. Each of their methods are different, each of their goals are different, if only slightly i.e. Cyphs wan't to keep bluepills in the simulation, while Machinists want Mankind and Machines to live together where they want inside or outside the simulation.

Zion wanted to work toward peace and free those who wanted out while EPN wanted to give all bluepills the choice. It seems that Zion's priorities has changed to be more in line with EPN, opposing the system.

>_>

GamiSB wrote:

What differences? You keep saying there are some but what and where are they? The ideals of the Cypherites is for the system to remain peaceful so the blues in it can sleep peacefully. This is the exact same ideal the Machine shares about bluepills and their system. I'm not using time to prove that they work together I'm using logic. You can't have two organizations with the same ideals and claim that one's purpose is different than the other. Their not, working towards the same goal for the same reasons is the same purpose.

You know, since the war started, the lines seperating EPN and Zion seem to have blurred. The System, Machinists and Cyphs are fighting Zion, Zionites and EPN. Each of their methods are different, each of their goals are different, if only slightly i.e. Cyphs wan't to keep bluepills in the simulation, while Machinists want Mankind and Machines to live together where they want inside or outside the simulation.

Zion wanted to work toward peace and free those who wanted out while EPN wanted to give all bluepills the choice. It seems that Zion's priorities has changed to be more in line with EPN, opposing the system.

That's where you're wrong Vinia. That's the big difference between EPN and Cyphs; EPN still has a purpose. EPN follows the example of Neo, and has continued to fight, even when Zion stops fighting. They seek to uphold Neo's memory and to be a beacon for the ideals he stood for.

The Cyphs, named for the most famous Cypherite of them all; Cypher, don't have that kind of purpose anymore. The Cypherite org is all but relegated to PvPers, with just a scant handful of RPers among them.

Well, I did kind of feel like since this was in the Character Development forum, and not the Next Ren or General forums, that it would kind of speak for itself. But...yeah.

Oh, and Gray says, "There is no such procedure."

Heh, good point. I think sometimes people miss the small details! As for Gray, his comment was directed at Cryptos, he was answering Cryptos' question. Gray was probably telling the truth, but Cryptos is a man overwritten with machine code that even Seraph couldn't remove. That could mean that there is no such procedure for Cryptos to be returned, but does it mean there is no such procedure at all? Cryptos made the assumption that it was a broad comment to include all Cypherites even saying Cypher didn't return.

A single spoken line was said, assumption did the rest...  

That's where you're wrong Vinia. That's the big difference between EPN and Cyphs; EPN still has a purpose. EPN follows the example of Neo, and has continued to fight, even when Zion stops fighting. They seek to uphold Neo's memory and to be a beacon for the ideals he stood for.

The Cyphs, named for the most famous Cypherite of them all; Cypher, don't have that kind of purpose anymore. The Cypherite org is all but relegated to PvPers, with just a scant handful of RPers among them.

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Well, I did kind of feel like since this was in the Character Development forum, and not the Next Ren or General forums, that it would kind of speak for itself. But...yeah.

Oh, and Gray says, "There is no such procedure."

Heh, good point. I think sometimes people miss the small details! As for Gray, his comment was directed at Cryptos, he was answering Cryptos' question. Gray was probably telling the truth, but Cryptos is a man overwritten with machine code that even Seraph couldn't remove. That could mean that there is no such procedure for Cryptos to be returned, but does it mean there is no such procedure at all? Cryptos made the assumption that it was a broad comment to include all Cypherites even saying Cypher didn't return.

A single spoken line was said, assumption did the rest...  

And OOC revelations by rarebit finishes it. He's made it clear to point out that no one has ever been reinserted by the Machines predating that event.

Also just looking at simple facts about the first movie which is commonly used to support the reinsertion idea. That Cypher was promised to be reinserted. No he wasn't continue watching and we hear Brown question Cypher being alive or dead and ends with say "continue as planned deploy the sentinels". The original plan was to kill Cypher along with the Neb crew no matter if he was able to finish off everyone but Morpheus or not.

Also if we look at the allegory of the cave, which is what the first Matrix is primarily based off of. In it we see that once you leave the cave you can not return to it.

Well condensing the entire Cypherite organisation's ideology, motivation and methodology into a single frame I'd say is unidentifiable at this stage.

A comparison being Zion; within which you have The Council, the divisions of the military, the religion, the various storyline characters and the factions and operatives themselves, not all of whom are always in agreement on the same issues.

... and in the same way, it has also been forced to adapt to its new environment; one substantially different than that of its original conception.

However, I'd also say one recurring element and thread which unites it still is the desire to hold onto their "humanity" both for its operatives and for their friends and family who still remain plugged into the Simulation; which can then be extended to the rest of the bluepill population. Perhaps, further still allowing those of the org to identify with and hold a compassion toward them on a far deeper level than any of the other orgs.

Something which they have relentlessly held onto, even in the context of strong machine disapproval and disdain.

A single purpose? Perhaps not.

A purpose? Most definitely.

It would of course be reassuring, I imagine, for most if not all of those still loyal to the movement to be able to explore this at the front lines of the main storyline as opposed to something in the background as privaront has stated.

And OOC revelations by rarebit finishes it. He's made it clear to point out that no one has ever been reinserted by the Machines predating that event.

Also just looking at simple facts about the first movie which is commonly used to support the reinsertion idea. That Cypher was promised to be reinserted. No he wasn't continue watching and we hear Brown question Cypher being alive or dead and ends with say "continue as planned deploy the sentinels". The original plan was to kill Cypher along with the Neb crew no matter if he was able to finish off everyone but Morpheus or not.

Also if we look at the allegory of the cave, which is what the first Matrix is primarily based off of. In it we see that once you leave the cave you can not return to it.

Oh I realise that, but that is Rarebit and OOC and right now. The fact is that what I said, is a possible way for that idea to be reversed, much like the way a villain can come back from the dead.

The Agents original plan was indeed to kill Cypher but just because they did doesn't mean that the procedure or normal redpills wasn't available, he was just more useful at that point because they were after his captain. Although I'd presume that, if that were the case, it would be more efficient to return a large number rather than individuals.

As for the allegory of the cave, I don't believe I've heard of that.

GamiSB wrote:

And OOC revelations by rarebit finishes it. He's made it clear to point out that no one has ever been reinserted by the Machines predating that event.

Also just looking at simple facts about the first movie which is commonly used to support the reinsertion idea. That Cypher was promised to be reinserted. No he wasn't continue watching and we hear Brown question Cypher being alive or dead and ends with say "continue as planned deploy the sentinels". The original plan was to kill Cypher along with the Neb crew no matter if he was able to finish off everyone but Morpheus or not.

Also if we look at the allegory of the cave, which is what the first Matrix is primarily based off of. In it we see that once you leave the cave you can not return to it.

Oh I realise that, but that is Rarebit and OOC and right now. The fact is that what I said, is a possible way for that idea to be reversed, much like the way a villain can come back from the dead.

The Agents original plan was indeed to kill Cypher but just because they did doesn't mean that the procedure or normal redpills wasn't available, he was just more useful at that point because they were after his captain. Although I'd presume that, if that were the case, it would be more efficient to return a large number rather than individuals.

As for the allegory of the cave, I don't believe I've heard of that.

Part of The Republic by Plato (and Socrates, kinda) =)

Along with the Metaphor of the Sun and Analogy of the Divided Line.

Basically that everything's a copy of an original and we're forced to endure the copies because we're chained together in a cave. Also, that if we ever choose to leave the cave, when we go back and tell everyone else there's some pretty cool stuff outside, they'll hate us for trying to ruin their lives.

Or...

... a low budget Matrix and, yes, he really was that dense. :3

GamiSB wrote:

And OOC revelations by rarebit finishes it. He's made it clear to point out that no one has ever been reinserted by the Machines predating that event.

Also just looking at simple facts about the first movie which is commonly used to support the reinsertion idea. That Cypher was promised to be reinserted. No he wasn't continue watching and we hear Brown question Cypher being alive or dead and ends with say "continue as planned deploy the sentinels". The original plan was to kill Cypher along with the Neb crew no matter if he was able to finish off everyone but Morpheus or not.

Also if we look at the allegory of the cave, which is what the first Matrix is primarily based off of. In it we see that once you leave the cave you can not return to it.

Oh I realise that, but that is Rarebit and OOC and right now. The fact is that what I said, is a possible way for that idea to be reversed, much like the way a villain can come back from the dead.

The Agents original plan was indeed to kill Cypher but just because they did doesn't mean that the procedure or normal redpills wasn't available, he was just more useful at that point because they were after his captain. Although I'd presume that, if that were the case, it would be more efficient to return a large number rather than individuals.

As for the allegory of the cave, I don't believe I've heard of that.

Actually what Gami was saying was that, at the time of this LE, a lot of people were making the same arguments for the possibility of the existence of a reinsertion procedure. After all, a lot of people's RP depended on this being a viable option. Then Rarebit, in an OOC way, pretty much came out and said, "nope, no reinsertion," effectively ending the argument.

And Plato's Allegory of the Cave is a must-read concept for matrix fans.

Basically that everything's a copy of an original and we're forced to endure the copies because we're chained together in a cave. Also, that if we ever choose to leave the cave, when we go back and tell everyone else there's some pretty cool stuff outside, they'll hate us for trying to ruin their lives.

Ah, I see. I wonder if this was part of the reason why Cypher wanted to remember nothing... NOTHING, or whether it's because he simply didn't want to remember anything about it.

That cave allegory I understand (about as much as I can, I'm not much of a philosopher), but I was introduced to it in another manner, probably on TV or something, hence the confusion.

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

XElite wrote:

Basically that everything's a copy of an original and we're forced to endure the copies because we're chained together in a cave. Also, that if we ever choose to leave the cave, when we go back and tell everyone else there's some pretty cool stuff outside, they'll hate us for trying to ruin their lives.

Ah, I see. I wonder if this was part of the reason why Cypher wanted to remember nothing... NOTHING, or whether it's because he simply didn't want to remember anything about it.

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

I'll go you one better: if the Machines had a mindwipe/reinsertion procedure, don't you think they would have perfected it and instead of killing 'redpills', reinserting them?

Hence why I said earlier 'I'd presume that, if that were the case, it would be more efficient to return a large number rather than individuals'.

But hey, why am I arguing a case for Cyphs? They should be doing it themselves!

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

So what you would have is a bluepill that is the same as a flickering light bulb. It works half the time but the other half its getting awoken again and again. There is no reason to keep this up when you can simply replace the bulb or human with another that will work 100% of the time.

It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

You have a point, but that is if they live the exact same lives as before. Whilst they would again have the itch or the questioning of reality, their decision when faced with the choice could be different depending on their situation, i.e. family, status etc.. Cyph said he wanted to be famous, most likely because of greed, but possibly to try to combat the impulse to be freed again.

The Human characteristic of curiosity is strong, granted, but it can be overcome.

Vinia wrote:

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

So what you would have is a bluepill that is the same as a flickering light bulb. It works half the time but the other half its getting awoken again and again. There is no reason to keep this up when you can simply replace the bulb or human with another that will work 100% of the time.

Well assuming experience does not define and shape who someone is. Even on a subconscious level.

I mean as far as anyone who would wish to return to the lives they had before they were awakened, I'm not so sure on what would prevent them from doing so, even as a redpill. That is, to have made the conscious and subconscious choice of wanting to live such a life.

In pratical terms, simply jacking into the Simulation for the majority of the time and spending said time with friends and family.

What I've always wondered is, would those who do wish to return to the Simulation make that same choice as a bluepill still plugged into the Matrix or is it one that can only be made from the perpsective of having been exposed to the world of the redpills. i.e The experience of knowing the grass actually isn't greener on the other side.

GamiSB wrote:

It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

You have a point, but that is if they live the exact same lives as before. Whilst they would again have the itch or the questioning of reality, their decision when faced with the choice could be different depending on their situation, i.e. family, status etc.. Cyph said he wanted to be famous, most likely because of greed, but possibly to try to combat the impulse to be freed again.

The Human characteristic of curiosity is strong, granted, but it can be overcome.

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

So what you would have is a bluepill that is the same as a flickering light bulb. It works half the time but the other half its getting awoken again and again. There is no reason to keep this up when you can simply replace the bulb or human with another that will work 100% of the time.

Well assuming experience does not define and shape who someone is. Even on a subconscious level.

I mean as far as anyone who would wish to return to the lives they had before they were awakened, I'm not so sure on what would prevent them from doing so, even as a redpill. That is, to have made the conscious and subconscious choice of wanting to live such a life.

In pratical terms, simply jacking into the Simulation for the majority of the time and spending said time with friends and family.

What I've always wondered is, would those who do wish to return to the Simulation make that same choice as a bluepill still plugged into the Matrix or is it one that can only be made from the perpsective of having been exposed to the world of the redpills. i.e The experience of knowing the grass actually isn't greener on the other side.

I think the biggest problem is that people misunderstand the concept of splinter orgs.  A splinter org, as extreme (or not) as it may be originates from the parent org or, for all intent and purpose, a principle that is the foundation.

Cypherites and E Pluribus Neo arose during a time of great tension between Zion and the Machines.  Before the war the differences they had with their parent was obvious.  Now that is no longer the case.  However, there are still differences otherwise there'd be no one to makeup the orgs themselves.  The "base idea" is the same but the means to that end is what separates everyone.

It's wrong to accuse a different organization of having no purpose, or at least not one that satisfies you personally.  I would never imply that someone doesn't have a purpose.  I've never walked in their shoes and have no idea what drives them or their companions.  I don't have to understand it but I do respect that within each of us is something that compels us to move forward.  You have your reasons and we have ours.  We don't and will never need someone to give us purpose.  We all find it on our own. 

If it changes, we will adapt and keeping walking towards tomorrow.