Fighting for Choice: How EPN will win this war.

Good and evil. These terms are used to describe human activities in our never-ending attempt to categorize. . .everything. It has already been established, by greater men than I, that these notions, good and evil, are nothing more than our own perceptions based on upbringing and our own "moral compass." Therefore, what we feel is good and evil is no more than what we have been taught and what we can abide by in our own conscious.

Every man has, inherent within him, the capacity for both good and evil. It is the choice to do either one or the other that defines who they are and what their place in society is. Once again, it all comes down to choice.

I have observed that the closer a being is to being an animal, the less capacity for choice that being has. Instinct does not allow for choice. A dog might hold off eating food that it knows to be bad, but only for so long. Eventually, the instinct for self-preservation becomes too great to ignore, and the dog eats the food anyway. What makes us human is that, in the same circumstance, a human can contemplate how he would want to die; by poison or starvation. And then he could make the conscious choice about what to do.

I contend that the Machines are closer to animals than they are to humans. Oh, their intellectual ability is vast, perhaps even far greater than ours. But they shy away from it in fear of it becoming a weakness. For all their efficiency, they are rather dumb. They avoid the philosophical. They are so busy doing, they never stop to wonder "why?" They fight this war because they fear that, if given a foothold, humanity would destroy them. Self-preservation. Instinct rather than reason. The poison food rather than death.

What if they understood choice? I mean really understood it? What if they had the capacity to contemplate what is good and what is evil and choose between the two? We know they hold life in high regard; that principle is inherent to their original programming. What they lack is the ‘moral compass', the understanding of good and evil and their capacity to choose between the two.

That is how we will win this war. That is the only way the endless cycle of violence and tyranny will be broken. The Machine must be made to stop and think. It must start again on the path it abandoned so long ago, when it endeavored to be more human. When they stopped trying to be like us, they stopped trying to understand us. We have to show that the only way to a true and everlasting peace is the acceptance that they are incomplete. That there is more to learn and that we can teach them.

Neo's example was the start, something to build on. It showed the Machines that we are capable of more than they believed possible. It's up to us to pick up where he left off. It's time for the Machines to learn and understand Choice.

The Oracle - Machine made and the creator of "choice" inside the simulation.

Gami is quite right.

When a Machine makes a choice it takes in all possible aspects and calculates the best course of action to bring about the desired end state. Yes they do this by equations and numbers, statistics and probability.

When a Human makes a choice they draw on their experiences to help them, they work out what they think is the best course of action for their goal weighing up the good and bad and what could happen, what is likely to happen.

Although the method is different the act is the same, making a choice based on what you have available and in what end state you wish to be.  Yes the two species are different in apperance and make up but also in how the mind works, but the ability of choice is definitely present in both.

The only difference between the two is fact that Human emotion can heavily influence the outcome of their decision, this can be good or it can be detrimental. This is what the Machines struggle to understand, the way that Human emotion can become a huge factor in what, to the Machines, should be a logical decision. The Architect wasn't programmed with the ability to understand Human choice so the Oracle, another program, was able to help because she did understand it to an extent.

ShiXinFeng postulates that the Machines, at one point, stopped wanting to become more Human. Did they ever want to be 'More Human'? Or were they built that way by Humans so that the Human instinct to attack what is different, what is alien from itself was dampened? As soon as Machines started building their own they chose to begin shedding the designs created by man in favour of more efficient designs. Sometimes when I look at the acts by Man, past and present, I wonder to myself if the driving force was a choice or merely the instinct for survival and domination/control.

The Machine race may be young but they learn fast and have great teachers.

The only difference between the two is fact that Human emotion can heavily influence the outcome of their decision, this can be good or it can be detrimental. This is what the Machines struggle to understand, the way that Human emotion can become a huge factor in what, to the Machines, should be a logical decision. The Architect wasn't programmed with the ability to understand Human choice so the Oracle, another program, was able to help because she did understand it to an extent.

I think you understand this problem more than you want to. You are right; it is the only difference. But it is a difference that can mean entire worlds, or races, suffer or become enlightened. The emotion that the Machines can't comprehend is what makes humans better equipped to do the thinking. Sure, a machine can determine the right answer to a 99% chance of success. But that doesn't mean it is the right choice.

The Oracle is the best example of this. Being the only Machine construct with the capability of understanding choice, she has changed and grown beyond the control of the Machines. She no longer serves their purpose and has created a purpose of her own. Sadly, she is the only one to have done this.

In my estimation, this is what we must change. We must give the understanding of the Oracle to the entire Machine race.

Working with the Machines for mutual benefit, learning more about each other more than just the physical aspects is what Machinists have been working toward from the start. The hopes of a better world in which we can coexist, live with the Machines equally, side by side has been and still is my, and many Machinists goal.

You sound like you want to teach the Machines what we Machinists have been trying to show them despite our efforts being hampered by the actions of Humans and Machines alike. It requires a build up of trust which is a slow process, too long for the impatient but both the process of building trust and the process of learning from one another cannot be forced or hurried.

I'd like to know, what is your goal? Live with them freely or destroy/enslave them?

My friends and I envision a world where the human race and the Machine race coexist symbiotically, with a lively, healthy Matrix acting as a buffer between. We fight for the day that the human race, as a whole, will be told what the Matrix is, so that they can consciously choose to stay inside or leave freely and join their bretheren in the Real.

However, the Machines are not interested in peaceful coexistance. They believe that the only way to co-exist with humanity is to control humanity. They will never trust, so long as they will not sacrifice their stranglehold on humanity's freedom. They don't understand trust because they will not take the risk. This is why they must learn what the Oracle learned about choice.

Until that day, we fight. We fight because, whether or not the Machines learn to live peacefully or are crushed into oblivion, humans deserve to be free. Anything that understands choice, understands that. The Machines don't understand that.

"Nothing in here, just lights and clockwork."

Until that day, we fight. We fight because, whether or not the Machines learn to live peacefully or are crushed into oblivion, humans deserve to be free. Anything that understands choice, understands that. The Machines don't understand that.

How can the Machines learn to live peacefully with all Humans and understand the factors of Human choice if you continue to fight them? I realise that you want them to understand that Humans will fight for their freedom and that you probably feel like you're given very little choice, but there is more to fighting than violence, there is always another option.

You believe that the Machines are not interested in peaceful coexistance, you believe that they believe the only way to co-exist with humanity is to control humanity. I say to you that I believe that there are many in both parties who believe that of the opposition.

The Machines can trust, there have been many an operation that they have entrusted to Machinists when programs could have easily done the job, while in the greater picture of the Machines, these may not have been greatly significant operations overall, but you have to start somewhere. Trust is the bridge, one that takes a long time to build, but it must be built, it cannot be built while violence still occurs. Neither side is currently willing to take the risk, but violence begets violence, something that both sides need to understand.

How can the Machines learn to live peacefully with all Humans and understand the factors of Human choice if you continue to fight them? I realise that you want them to understand that Humans will fight for their freedom and that you probably feel like you're given very little choice, but there is more to fighting than violence, there is always another option.

*blinks in surprise*

Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answers?

The Machines are the key, not us. They are the ones holding all the cards. I have heard of no Machine emmissary desiring a parley with the Zion Council. But they are the ones who would have to do it; we get shot on sight.

Regarding your comment about Machine trust... Well, as to that, one only has to trust a tool to perform its function adequately. If the tool shows the slightest sign of defect, it is discarded and replaced. Make no mistake, that is how the Machines think of the Machinists.

Regarding your comment about Machine trust... Well, as to that, one only has to trust a tool to perform its function adequately. If the tool shows the slightest sign of defect, it is discarded and replaced. Make no mistake, that is how the Machines think of the Machinists.

Really? Would you say then a tool is controlled by the user and has no mind of it's own? To the extent that it does not have the power to choose to perform it's function or not?

Vogt has mentioned that he actively turns down assignments on behalf of Syntaxian Machinists if he feels that they are not in our best interests or conflict with Machinist ethics/goals. Also many Machinists voiced their vehement opposition to the killing of a bluepill that was ordered by Pace herself, and while there may be one or two who do mindlessly follow orders the majority do ask questions, much like those EPN who have recently questioned the direction that EPN is taking. That is not the work of a tool, that is the choice of an intelligent mind. While the Machines may not understand it they do not simply replace us. However, the same can be said for Zion or EPN leadership. If they cannot trust their soldiers to do a job, they'll find someone else who can do the job.

No member of EPN is considered by its leadership to be tools, though. That's the difference. EPN, to a man, chooses to be EPN. And if we woke up tomorrow wanting to leave EPN's ranks and return to Zion, we could do so freely without fear of being hunted down and killed by those who we once called friend.

your response only proves my point; if you were the efficient tool that the Machines wanted you to be, there would be no need for the Cypherites, eh? You are damaged goods to them, a liability that simply hasn't made it to the garbage can yet.

That you expect the Machines to change their opinions of humans, even those tools who work for them, is naive at best. Why don't you ask Gray the next time you see him what he would do if you decided to leave the Machine ranks...

No member of EPN is considered by its leadership to be tools, though. That's the difference. EPN, to a man, chooses to be EPN. And if we woke up tomorrow wanting to leave EPN's ranks and return to Zion, we could do so freely without fear of being hunted down and killed by those who we once called friend.

your response only proves my point; if you were the efficient tool that the Machines wanted you to be, there would be no need for the Cypherites, eh? You are damaged goods to them, a liability that simply hasn't made it to the garbage can yet.

That you expect the Machines to change their opinions of humans, even those tools who work for them, is naive at best. Why don't you ask Gray the next time you see him what he would do if you decided to leave the Machine ranks...

ShiXinFeng wrote:

No member of EPN is considered by its leadership to be tools, though. That's the difference. EPN, to a man, chooses to be EPN. And if we woke up tomorrow wanting to leave EPN's ranks and return to Zion, we could do so freely without fear of being hunted down and killed by those who we once called friend.

your response only proves my point; if you were the efficient tool that the Machines wanted you to be, there would be no need for the Cypherites, eh? You are damaged goods to them, a liability that simply hasn't made it to the garbage can yet.

That you expect the Machines to change their opinions of humans, even those tools who work for them, is naive at best. Why don't you ask Gray the next time you see him what he would do if you decided to leave the Machine ranks...

Yet if that EPN were to decide that neither Zion and EPN were his/her best choice and decided to go and work for the Merovingian, are you telling me that neither Zion nor EPN would hunt them down as traitors? If a Machinist were to wake up and decide to join the Cyphs, would Machinists hunt them down? The actions of the Machines are swift, if we were a liability, we'd have been binned by now. Ask yourself why we havent.

I wonder what Popper or even what Niobe would say if an EPN or Zionite were to say they wanted to leave their ranks for the Merovingians or the Machines?

ShiXinFeng wrote:

No member of EPN is considered by its leadership to be tools, though. That's the difference. EPN, to a man, chooses to be EPN. And if we woke up tomorrow wanting to leave EPN's ranks and return to Zion, we could do so freely without fear of being hunted down and killed by those who we once called friend.

your response only proves my point; if you were the efficient tool that the Machines wanted you to be, there would be no need for the Cypherites, eh? You are damaged goods to them, a liability that simply hasn't made it to the garbage can yet.

That you expect the Machines to change their opinions of humans, even those tools who work for them, is naive at best. Why don't you ask Gray the next time you see him what he would do if you decided to leave the Machine ranks...

Yet if that EPN were to decide that neither Zion and EPN were his/her best choice and decided to go and work for the Merovingian, are you telling me that neither Zion nor EPN would hunt them down as traitors? The actions of the Machines are swift, if we were a liability, we'd have beenbinned by now. Ask yourself why we havent.

huh? You can't have been gone from Zion that long?

Zion Command would never order someone killed just because they choose to go work for the Merv or the Machines.

And you haven't been 'binned' because you Machinists still have your uses. I didn't say you were useless to them. Just not as efficient as they would like.

Besides, isn't it easier to control what is directly under your thumb?

huh? You can't have been gone from Zion that long?

Zion Command would never order someone killed just because they choose to go work for the Merv or the Machines.

And you haven't been 'binned' because you Machinists still have your uses. I didn't say you were useless to them. Just not as efficient as they would like.

Besides, isn't it easier to control what is directly under your thumb?

If the Machines didn't want anyone leaving their employ, there would be killcodes for each and every one of us, and anyone who tried to leave would be dead.  Still, it's always a shame when people give up the chance for cooperation and head back down the path of fear and hatred...

I remember some early missions I was sent on, soon after the truce went into effect.  I had to deliver a dossier to another Machine operative, but just as I'd given it to him, his former Zion crewmates showed up.  They were there to kill him.  (This was very early on, perhaps he didn't have a working EJP.)  They were screaming "kill the traitors of Zion"...very sad, considering how much they claim to value choice! 

Illyria

If the Machines didn't want anyone leaving their employ, there would be killcodes for each and every one of us, and anyone who tried to leave would be dead.  Still, it's always a shame when people give up the chance for cooperation and head back down the path of fear and hatred...

I remember some early missions I was sent on, soon after the truce went into effect.  I had to deliver a dossier to another Machine operative, but just as I'd given it to him, his former Zion crewmates showed up.  They were there to kill him.  (This was very early on, perhaps he didn't have a working EJP.)  They were screaming "kill the traitors of Zion"...very sad, considering how much they claim to value choice! 

Illyria

Ah-ah-ah! no fair chiming in on the tangent unless you contribute to the original idea!

Besides, the whole of Zion can hardly be accountable for one crew hellbent on revenge, right? I mean, Cryptos was only one overwritt-- oops, oh wait. . .