EPN sets off code bombs?

Vinia wrote:

Did Zion declare him renegade before or after he started his bombing campaign?

Before, he himself left Zion and shortly after he started making threats Zion disowned him.

Did Zion declare him renegade before or after he started his bombing campaign?

Zion had identified Morpheus as a rebel even before the first film.  Imagine if you were in the Army, and one of the generals said that he was going to go invade a country and look for Jesus.  Yeah.

I would also love to see where Morpheus told the Oracle he knew Code Bombs had the chance of killing blue pills?

Popper was different. He knew something was wrong, his mind was prepared to accept the shock of waking up in a pod of goo. Plus, Neo & company may have been watching him the whole time (very likely, they were the ones to call him) and quickly jacked his pod to make sure he could get out.

The other blues didn't have that luxury and were forced to flail about until they choked on their own goo.

Code bombs reveal the truth, forcefully, to bluepills. Those who's minds cannot accept it, i.e. completely dependant on the simulation to live, would die, those that could would stand a better chance at surviving but are likely to either drown/choke in their pods, or if they get flushed before drowning, they would be unlikely to have the energy and/or muscle power to keep from drowning for any length of time. Their location in the towers would be random so there is no possibility of predicting where a random bluepill would wake up therefore where they would end up to be saved by hovercraft. Multiple hovercraft would also be more likely to be spotted by the Machines.

So thinking about it logically, the codebombs may not cause death directly 100% of the time but unless the person was really lucky, that bomb would be the cause of their death, indirectly. 

How the the first awakened redpill survive, without hovercraft to save him from the sewers?

Phrack wrote:

How the the first awakened redpill survive, without hovercraft to save him from the sewers?

There will be at least one hovercraft piloted by at least one of the survivors from the previous iteration.

Personally, I've always been finicky about the concept that code bombs "kill" bluepills at all.

I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that this would happen, other than the RP of other players who assume that code bombs do kill bluepills. 

According to Popper, a while back Taecross used some code bombs which killed several bluepills, perhaps more. This wasn't propaganda by the Machines or Machinists, it came from EPN's own leader who banned their use beforehand. What more evidence can you ask for?

Didn't he put you on probation for that?

How?  If the Machines wipe out all of humanity and all of Zion, then how is one hovercraft left to be piloted?

Who teaches this newly awakened (and alone) bluepill to pilot it?  Or furthermore, how to jack in/out of the Matrix all by his little old lonesome?

Phrack wrote:

Personally, I've always been finicky about the concept that code bombs "kill" bluepills at all.

I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that this would happen, other than the RP of other players who assume that code bombs do kill bluepills. 

According to Popper, a while back Taecross used some code bombs which killed several bluepills, perhaps more. This wasn't propaganda by the Machines or Machinists, it came from EPN's own leader who banned their use beforehand. What more evidence can you ask for?

Didn't he put you on probation for that?

Phrack wrote:

How?  If the Machines wipe out all of humanity and all of Zion, then how is one hovercraft left to be piloted?

Who teaches this newly awakened (and alone) bluepill to pilot it?  Or furthermore, how to jack in/out of the Matrix all by his little old lonesome?

I'm sorry. I was lead to believe, through video archives, that The One aids the Machines in resetting the simulation and then s/he chooses a certain disproportionate amount of males and females to survive and remain in the real to help rebuild and populate Zion thus enabling the cycle again. Surely one of these will be able to remember how to pilot a hovercraft and use it's systems...

Popper's witness of "dead bluepills" were a pile of bodies outside the Camon Heights Church, within the simulation...  which does not prove anything.

And yes.  I was put on probation for that, along with a couple of others.  What's your point?

Phrack wrote:

Popper's witness of "dead bluepills" were a pile of bodies outside the Camon Heights Church, within the simulation...  which does not prove anything.

And yes.  I was put on probation for that, along with a couple of others.  What's your point?

Tell me then, how did he know they drowned specifically? Why did he ban them beforehand? There must have been a reason for him to do that.

But if you'll scroll up, I also mentioned "the first awakened redpill."

At that time, there was no Zion.  There were no hovercrafts.  However, Zero One most certainly did exist, and so did the pod fields and the sewers they flushed into.

In regard to the first question...  no clue, go fig.  There's no proof to suggest that they did.

As far as the second question...  code bombs are a bad PR move?

Phrack wrote:

But if you'll scroll up, I also mentioned "the first awakened redpill."

At that time, there was no Zion.  There were no hovercrafts.  However, Zero One most certainly did exist, and so did the pod fields and the sewers they flushed into.

The story of the first could well have been made up. The Machines knew from the Oracle that the system of the One was needed and a place for awakened to stay was required. Isn't it likely they released the first few and gave them some knowledge for the technical side? It was most certainly not the 'well oiled machine' that Zion has today, or at least had during the war before the truce but everything has to start somewhere.

Phrack wrote:

In regard to the first question...  no clue, go fig.  There's no proof to suggest that they did.

As far as the second question...  code bombs are a bad PR move?

I don't think Popper was concerned with PR at that point.

But it does lend question into Machine "efficiency."  The concept that the Machines allow people to leave from the simulation to avoid a system-wide catastrophe makes sense.  But allowing them to create their own city, breed, build defenses against the Machines, then actively seek out and wake up others doesn't make sense.  Especially when you consider that the Machines already intend to kill them anyway.

If they have to allow them to wake up, seems to me like it would make more sense to kill them immediately upon awakening.  No muss, no fuss.

The awakened Humans aren't going to realise they are part of a cycle, they're just going to think that they were lucky and 'saved' from the Matrix, thus helping to build a society which after several generations coming and going the prophecy, fed to them by the oracle, will become embedded into their society for when the anomaly does emerge. It has to seem like they are fluorishing, and I don't think the Machine will want to stop them from creating defences, especially when they are easily circumvented.

As I said its a system, the Human element is predicted obviously, but it's still a system.

I wouldn't have thought so either.  But I guess I was proven wrong following the incident when he actually took time to address the 300 angry redpills from all organizations who were screaming at him about what had happened, blaming EPN for one of their liaisons who'd gone rogue as opposed to blaming themselves for not being able to stop him sooner.

Phrack wrote:

I wouldn't have thought so either.  But I guess I was proven wrong following the incident when he actually took time to address the 300 angry redpills from all organizations who were screaming at him about what had happened, blaming EPN for one of their liaisons who'd gone rogue as opposed to blaming themselves for not being able to stop him sooner.

I was under the impression that Popper had banned their use before that incident, hence the reason why an EPN went rogue.

ZippyTheSquirrel wrote:

Popper was different. He knew something was wrong, his mind was prepared to accept the shock of waking up in a pod of goo. Plus, Neo & company may have been watching him the whole time (very likely, they were the ones to call him) and quickly jacked his pod to make sure he could get out.

The other blues didn't have that luxury and were forced to flail about until they choked on their own goo.

Certainly possible.

But it does not mean that every bluepill body seen following a code bomb detonation is a bluepill that has died in the real.

Even the excuse of there not being enough hovercraft around to save them kind of falls apart when you look into the "cycle" of how all freeborn humans are killed by the Machines, until one wakes up and frees the first few.  How the the first awakened redpill survive, without hovercraft to save him from the sewers?

I'll say it again.  Death in the Matrix does not always necessarily mean death in the real, to assume it does is ignorant.

This idea is dependent on whether or not there would ever be another Michael Popper. Up until him, there had only been those who were awakened by other awakened, going all the back to the first One.

Also, how do you know a body is left behind? All you see is him falling and then a funeral. There is enough room there to speculate that they buried an empty coffin.

But it was my understanding that Morpheus had the idea that code bombs would shock people awake for just a few moments. Just long enough to look around at their prison's walls. Just long enough to see what the Matrix was. Then, the Machines would put them back to sleep. Of course, when they woke up, they would have these visions of a nightmarish scenario that would haunt them for the rest of their lives. . .however long that turned out to be. So when their RSI's 'died', it was only because they were conscious in the Real for a time.

I could be wrong about it, though. But I remember Morpheus running around trying to get people to believe in him, trying to get us to join him. And I think that was his explanation to more than a few of us.

Also, how do you know a body is left behind? All you see is him falling and then a funeral. There is enough room there to speculate that they buried an empty coffin.

The fact is that there are significant (intentional or unintentional) plotholes here that make it impossible to obtain straight answers.  Without those straight answers, it's impossible to argue the point.

A code bomb works like this.

It detonates and reveals the code around the area of detiniation any redpill in the area are affected aswell haveing their own code revealed as well. HOWEVER! This is not going to happen 100% of the time for every blue in the area. Some see it BUT some do not. In the 4.2 machine crits Machien ops interview several people that were at one of the sights of detination but described the whole thing as just being a bright light and when they could see again nticed a few were dead. Meaning not everyone is awakened if they are in the blast radius.

Also Morpheus death count is greatly over exagerated as all three controller's at the time confirmed that they had ships there to pick up those that were affected. Very few in fact drowned in their pods.

Which archives were those?

Personally, I've always been finicky about the concept that code bombs "kill" bluepills at all.

I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that this would happen, other than the RP of other players who assume that code bombs do kill bluepills.  Other than that, the only other thing that would even slightly suggest that they would result in the deaths of bluepills are the scattered bluepill bodies that remain after a detonation...  but we should be smarter than to believe that.  Remember, Michael Popper woke up on his own, and it left a "dead body" behind too.

Death in the Matrix != Death in the Real.

Phrack wrote:

Personally, I've always been finicky about the concept that code bombs "kill" bluepills at all.

I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that this would happen, other than the RP of other players who assume that code bombs do kill bluepills.  Other than that, the only other thing that would even slightly suggest that they would result in the deaths of bluepills are the scattered bluepill bodies that remain after a detonation...  but we should be smarter than to believe that.  Remember, Michael Popper woke up on his own, and it left a "dead body" behind too.

Death in the Matrix != Death in the Real.

Mr. Popper is among the 1% of the human population that can handle the fact that his reality is not real.  Furthermore, the fact that he is significantly closer to the Age Of Extraction increases his chances of being within that 1% margin.  Bluepills die because 99% of them cannot handle the fact that everything they do, all they've worked for, all they love, is meaningless and nonexistent; the trauma is so massive that they suffer highly advanced forms of Conversion Disorder, resulting in death.

Wrong, the percentage is not about who can or can not handle the truth. It is who does and does not want to know it in other words, the percentage of who all would become aware of the truth on their own. 99% don't care about the truth and are not aware that what they live in is not the truth. 1% doe care, and is slightly aware that it is not teh truth. 

The ability to handle to handle the truth is not reserved to only the 1% as even they sometimes have a hard time. Which is why Zion installed an age limit because even those of the 1% but had passed the age limit could not handle what the truth meant. Cypher is a case in point just not as extreme as most like to make it out to be.

But it does lend question into Machine "efficiency."  The concept that the Machines allow people to leave from the simulation to avoid a system-wide catastrophe makes sense.  But allowing them to create their own city, breed, build defenses against the Machines, then actively seek out and wake up others doesn't make sense.  Especially when you consider that the Machines already intend to kill them anyway.

If they have to allow them to wake up, seems to me like it would make more sense to kill them immediately upon awakening.  No muss, no fuss.

The Machines created Zion, to be used during each cycle of the Matrix as the safety valve for the 1% that didn't accept the simulation.  (Or rather, those members of the 1% that survived and made it out of the Matrix.)  The thing is, it had to be as believable as possible...the humans who were extracted from the Matrix had to believe the Machines didn't know where Zion was (and couldn't destroy the city any time they chose), and the programs that chased them couldn't be allowed to know the Machines had anything to do with setting up the city as that safety valve.

And I believe it's unlikely there would be survivors from the previous version of Zion once it was destroyed.  It's more probable that the bluepills the One chose to begin the repopulation of Zion after its destruction would have their memories altered -- maybe to make them think they were the last of Zion's previous population; or possibly that they'd survived the initial war with the Machines in the 21st century, and they were the first to take refuge in the secret underground city that had been built as a defense against Machine attacks.  And when they were able to venture back into the Matrix as redpills, the Oracle would have fed them the story of the prophecy of the One.

Illyria

EDIT: Morpheus admits to knowing the code bombs will kill bluepills to the Oracle in one of the cinematics, I believe...I'm not sure which one it is.

EDIT: Morpheus admits to knowing the code bombs will kill bluepills to the Oracle in one of the cinematics, I believe...I'm not sure which one it is.

Check again, the only cinematic we have with the two together he starts off by explaining that his idea of winning the war was the the machines and many within the Matrix would all have to die, but the next years would be spent restoring everything. He then reflects that Neo found a way to find peace without such needless killing. Then he questions her about what has happened to Neo's remains to which she replies "Sounds like you found your new purpose" and he asks in reply, "But is it right? Will I be successful?" He does not admit to knowing what code bombs would do, he doesn't even mention them.

So this isn't an admission of his willingness to murder bluepills...how?

Illyria

So this isn't an admission of his willingness to murder bluepills...how?

Illyria