All Machines go to Heaven?

Ok so let's assume for a moment that we are all religious and believe in a heaven. Would a Machine/Program/Exile go to heaven? If so or if not, why?

Doesn't matter which religions as they all have somewhat different takes on it, just make sure to state which one.

To start us off I'll bring up Christianity and ask a  few questions. Now the Christian faith believes that it is only through an acceptance of ones incapability to atone for their wrong doings and reliance upon God and his son Jesus to make that atonement that one would be allowed into heaven.

Now with just a first glance one would say yes because all that is needed for this to take place is a program running that has the Machine believe such. But would this be enough let alone is it a real belief or not just some programmed one? This then steps into other religious beliefs that good works are what gets you in, but if a program has one set of rules and is incapable of doing wrong does this still apply? They are not doing it for God or for others but only because they are programmed to do such.

This works the other way to. Say a program is created to be unable to depend on God for salvation or is incapable of doing "good". Are they to be blamed for there misdeeds?

Seeing as humans are created by God, as was Earth and Heaven - they (just as the former and latter) are eternal. However, The Matrix was not created by Man, or God, (created by Machine, not eternal). Seeing as programs are written by other programs or other Machines, they are not the direct byproduct of God or Humanity.

Seeing as a program is AI, (ARTIFICIAL Intelligence) and when it is to be deleted (REPLACED), it goes to the source to be overwritten/erased. The deletion of an artificial being, the contents of your "Recycle Bin" do not go to Heaven, would not result in a soul leaving a body.

Now this opens up the debate for whether programs and machines have a soul. Personally I believe that (just as an RSI is the host of a program) our bodies are the hosts for our souls. That being true (for the sake of my arguement), then the equivalent of a Machine/program's soul would be their "hard copy" or machine in the Real World.

So a program or machine would not go to Heaven (or Hell), but perhaps some "graveyard" in the real, where their "soul (the hard copy or w/e it may be)" remains existent.

In order to ask whether self aware, intelligent Machines/Programs etc go to a place after 'death' as Humans would, you firstly assume that there is such a place.

Most Humans believe that they will go to heaven based on what? Belief. There is no actual evidence that the place exists. If the sentient programs believe that they will go, what excludes them from going?

I'd like someone to prove that a God made mankind, and that Humans go to heaven. A belief structure limited to Human thinking is going to be inherently flawed imo, but thats all it boils down to, belief.

The Machines have intelligence, we call it artificial because it can be built and it is different from our intelligence, but we are both species are machines simply made in different ways from different materials.

So do Machines go to heaven? Do Humans go to heaven? Who knows, but if they believe in it who is anyone to deny them it?

Simply put no..

The Machines made Deus Ex Machina.

They broke the first commandment and as a result they are not capable of Heaven.

privaron0 wrote:

Simply put no..

The Machines made Deus Ex Machina.

They broke the first commandment and as a result they are not capable of Heaven.

Isn't that more in line with the second commandment? They don't seem to actually worship it or anything.

privaron0 wrote:

Simply put no..

The Machines made Deus Ex Machina.

They broke the first commandment and as a result they are not capable of Heaven.

Isn't that more in line with the second commandment? They don't seem to actually worship it or anything.

Most religions have, at their heart, as the final step into the unknown a form of transcendentalism. Christians, Muslims, and Jews all believe in a Heaven. Buddhists and Taoists believe, I think, in spiritual enlightenment and becoming one with the universe.

The fundamental path for all of these religions is through a surrendering, either to the will of the Creator, God, or to the knowledge that as an individual they are insignificant and must join the universe to acheive a kind of immortality whereby they do the most good in the universe.

The act of surrender is a wholly selfless act of free-will. It cannot be forced or programmed. Generally speaking, Machines and programs need input to carry out their functions. (every program and Machine has a purpose; if it loses it's purpose, it immediately goes to find another as is the case with Exiles in the Matrix) However, most practitioners of religious dogma have no input. They operate solely on the faith that their actions will lead them to enlightenment/heaven.

Therefore, while it is possible that a Machine might become sentient, it is not possible for them to become the faithful follower of an intangible and imperceivable God.

In many of our stories about Machine sentience, this is largely the reason that Machines are not trusted by man. Though there is great intelligence and a general discipline to uphold those things accepted by society, there is no "moral compass" in them; only functions, directives, orders, processes, and programs. Even the Oracle never acknowledges the 'good' of what she is doing, only that there is no other way for Man and Machine to survive than to do so together.

There may very well be another level of existence that we cannot imagine, I just simply do not feel that any religion and it's respective terms of entry is even close. I believe that religion is a Human creation, an interpretation of what many believe guided by hope and a section of society.

While religion is founded in belief, it is only seen from the Human aspect, and therein lies a problem. I believe that belief is the very basis of religion due to the very fact that Humans aren't aware of all the facts. If you had all the facts it wouldn't be belief, it'd be knowledge.

Belief isn't a bad thing, considering that on the current subject we may never gain all the facts, but it is open to inaccuracy and perversion.

In order to ask whether self aware, intelligent Machines/Programs etc go to a place after 'death' as Humans would, you firstly assume that there is such a place.

Most Humans believe that they will go to heaven based on what? Belief. There is no actual evidence that the place exists. If the sentient programs believe that they will go, what excludes them from going?

I'd like someone to prove that a God made mankind, and that Humans go to heaven. A belief structure limited to Human thinking is going to be inherently flawed imo, but thats all it boils down to, belief.

The Machines have intelligence, we call it artificial because it can be built and it is different from our intelligence, but we are both species are machines simply made in different ways from different materials.

So do Machines go to heaven? Do Humans go to heaven? Who knows, but if they believe in it who is anyone to deny them it?

Ok so let's assume for a moment that we are all religious and believe in a heaven.

Vinia wrote:

In order to ask whether self aware, intelligent Machines/Programs etc go to a place after 'death' as Humans would, you firstly assume that there is such a place.

Most Humans believe that they will go to heaven based on what? Belief. There is no actual evidence that the place exists. If the sentient programs believe that they will go, what excludes them from going?

I'd like someone to prove that a God made mankind, and that Humans go to heaven. A belief structure limited to Human thinking is going to be inherently flawed imo, but thats all it boils down to, belief.

The Machines have intelligence, we call it artificial because it can be built and it is different from our intelligence, but we are both species are machines simply made in different ways from different materials.

So do Machines go to heaven? Do Humans go to heaven? Who knows, but if they believe in it who is anyone to deny them it?

GamiSB wrote:

Ok so let's assume for a moment that we are all religious and believe in a heaven.

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

In order to ask whether self aware, intelligent Machines/Programs etc go to a place after 'death' as Humans would, you firstly assume that there is such a place.

Most Humans believe that they will go to heaven based on what? Belief. There is no actual evidence that the place exists. If the sentient programs believe that they will go, what excludes them from going?

I'd like someone to prove that a God made mankind, and that Humans go to heaven. A belief structure limited to Human thinking is going to be inherently flawed imo, but thats all it boils down to, belief.

The Machines have intelligence, we call it artificial because it can be built and it is different from our intelligence, but we are both species are machines simply made in different ways from different materials.

So do Machines go to heaven? Do Humans go to heaven? Who knows, but if they believe in it who is anyone to deny them it?

GamiSB wrote:

Ok so let's assume for a moment that we are all religious and believe in a heaven.

Fine. Yes they will, if they believe in it. They are sentient, they're just made up of differing materials, I don't see how they are much different. The spark that makes a human aware, there must be a Machine/Program equivalent if they are self aware too.

This is the same way I feel. Because really at their cores man and Machine are completely the same. We are just like them, we need inputs to construct our beliefs. I like to relate it to flying. We never dream to fly until we saw a bird do it before us. For every action a reaction sorta thing. Thus free will is non existent and can not be the step into heaven as then no one would make it in. So then a programing to which all beings must conform to would be the next best guess in which anything as long as it conforms to the programing needed to make it in is allowed.

Like a key, you have to have the right notches in order to unlock the door. Without them you can't get inside.

Both of Sati's parents are religious.  The Machines simply recognize that there are many words for a hope of life after death, and morality.  We can call it religion, faith, karma, Heaven, whatever.

Also, privaron0, breaking a commandment doesn't equal a sentence to hell.  Repentance allows one into heaven, regardless of sin.  Theoretically.

Chemuel wrote:

Both of Sati's parents are religious.  The Machines simply recognize that there are many words for a hope of life after death, and morality.  We can call it religion, faith, karma, Heaven, whatever.

Also, privaron0, breaking a commandment doesn't equal a sentence to hell.  Repentance allows one into heaven, regardless of sin.  Theoretically.

Agreed but basing an entire civilization on it's breaking through multiple generations does.

No.

A program never ceases to function and the hardware simply goes the way of all flesh, all mineral, all chemical.

If you believe that Machines go to heaven, you'd have to believe that breaking a Microsoft Office 2007 CD would send that whole suite of programs to heaven when really, all you've done is sever a portion of the code making it unreadable. Were it required, the data could be recovered and repaired. Then, would the program be resurrected?

There is something else to a human being - that when it dies cannot be brought back, cannot be fixed, cannot be repaired, despite still-functioning organs.

This implies that while machines are bound to the earth, there is something within the human body which can transcend. The difference between Intelligence and Artificial Intelligence being this something. Whereas the human intelligence or soul has the ability to transcend as it may or may not stem from an ethereal plane of existence, the artificial intelligence was manufactured and stored on Earth, essentially within machine. While the physical location of the intelligence, which in this case is the soul, of the human being is unknown, the physical location of machine intelligence is known, and is unchanging.

On top of that, the absolution of sin was granted to God's children by Christ, not Man's children. Assuming that a Machine could make it to heaven somehow (I don't believe this would be possible as stated above) they coud technically be held accountable for every sin made in their so-called life. I don't think the genocide, the people-growing, the Matrix, et cetera would look too good on their slates.

As far as Eastern religions go:

Buddhism with the concept of Nirvana and the Four Noble Truths could work, I suppose. If a program is broken, a Machine is without power, what does it do? Nothing. There's your Nirvana. More household appliances shoud subscribe to this religion, then, I suppose.

Hinduism could work as well. Samsara is certainly applicable to those programs which are removed from their first hosts, go through the source, and are then put into another host, perhaps performing a different function. Through exile, the desired escape from the cycle could be accomplished as well, where a degree of freedom and englightenment are gained. Karma could be executed through the source - if a program was poor in its duties as a sentinel, it may end up with a recycling function its next time around, as deemed by the great task assigner within the Machine city (Deus Ex Machina?).

No.

A program never ceases to function and the hardware simply goes the way of all flesh, all mineral, all chemical.

If you believe that Machines go to heaven, you'd have to believe that breaking a Microsoft Office 2007 CD would send that whole suite of programs to heaven when really, all you've done is sever a portion of the code making it unreadable. Were it required, the data could be recovered and repaired. Then, would the program be resurrected?

There is something else to a human being - that when it dies cannot be brought back, cannot be fixed, cannot be repaired, despite still-functioning organs.

This implies that while machines are bound to the earth, there is something within the human body which can transcend. The difference between Intelligence and Artificial Intelligence being this something. Whereas the human intelligence or soul has the ability to transcend as it may or may not stem from an ethereal plane of existence, the artificial intelligence was manufactured and stored on Earth, essentially within machine. While the physical location of the intelligence, which in this case is the soul, of the human being is unknown, the physical location of machine intelligence is known, and is unchanging.

On top of that, the absolution of sin was granted to God's children by Christ, not Man's children. Assuming that a Machine could make it to heaven somehow (I don't believe this would be possible as stated above) they coud technically be held accountable for every sin made in their so-called life. I don't think the genocide, the people-growing, the Matrix, et cetera would look too good on their slates.

As far as Eastern religions go:

Buddhism with the concept of Nirvana and the Four Noble Truths could work, I suppose. If a program is broken, a Machine is without power, what does it do? Nothing. There's your Nirvana. More household appliances shoud subscribe to this religion, then, I suppose.

Hinduism could work as well. Samsara is certainly applicable to those programs which are removed from their first hosts, go through the source, and are then put into another host, perhaps performing a different function. Through exile, the desired escape from the cycle could be accomplished as well, where a degree of freedom and englightenment are gained. Karma could be executed through the source - if a program was poor in its duties as a sentinel, it may end up with a recycling function its next time around, as deemed by the great task assigner within the Machine city (Deus Ex Machina?).

No.

A program never ceases to function and the hardware simply goes the way of all flesh, all mineral, all chemical.

If you believe that Machines go to heaven, you'd have to believe that breaking a Microsoft Office 2007 CD would send that whole suite of programs to heaven when really, all you've done is sever a portion of the code making it unreadable. Were it required, the data could be recovered and repaired. Then, would the program be resurrected?

I'm sorry I didn't realise that a MS Office CD was sentient, I'll be more careful in future. A mind would never cease to function if it's 'hardware' was maintained. You're only talking about breaking what contains the data. Data could only be resurrected if it was lost. A broken CD hasn't lost data. You are being prejudiced against their form of life because they are sufficiently different in makeup than Humans which may afford them such abilities that we don't for example; repair, longer life etc...

Human religion is restricted to Human thinking, while this means that according to those religions, that are unable to adapt to the changing world, they may not be able to go, that doesn't mean they can't, especially if they subscribe to another religion, a religion that doesn't see Man as the only thing worthy of continued existance.

A God that would forgive his own creation of sin but would not forgive the creation of his creation, an extention of his Childrens life, is no God of mine. However, who is to say he hasn't granted the absolution of sin to the Machines?  Just because no Human has written it down in a Human written book of a Human religion? Man had their opportunity why can't the Machines?

((*CENSORED*, I hate pretending to be religious, it's too complicated))

If they didn't, where would all the calculators go?

((sorry red dwarf reference "The Last Day" Season 3, Episode 6))

That's all I kept on thinking about while reading this thread. In fact it was going to be my finishing argument!

Dave: Is Silicon Heaven the same as Human Heaven?

Kryten: Human Heaven? They just made that up to stop you from going crazy!

Coming from a religion that doesn't have a set of commandments, a devil, original sin, or eternal damnation, my perspective may be a bit different than most people here...

I would think that any intelligent or self-aware being -- human, AI, alien, whatever -- would end up in the same state after death...whether that's an afterlife, oblivion, or rejoining some kind of universal consciousness. 

Lyr

I'm 100% not in character here. This is just me talking about stuff, not arguing or whatever. Theological and philosophical suppositions, if you will.

But since everything to make a machine is earth-bound as is their intelligence, youc an either believe that they are without souls, or that their souls are manufactured. Either way, there's no connection to any sort of divine, and so there's no link to the heavenly plane. When a machine would break, that material soul, if it exists, simply decomposes. It doesn't mysteriousy disappear like the weight within a human being shortly before death (something like 3 grams, I believe?). The sentience doesn't mean a thing, because at the end of the day, it's just a chip in the computer. So if you think that a machine's going to go to heaven or anywhere other than the ground, you have to believe that your toaster and washer will be waiting for you there, too.

But it's all human religion, and that's correct. Mostly because Machines would probably find religion to be irrational to begin with, but also because religion stems from mysticism mostly during ancient times, and since there are no real prophets in the modern day, and there are no real prophets in the Matrix as far as I can tell. You can look at Neo as that messianic figure if you want to, but this game kind of voids the absolution he granted in Revolutions, reducing him to a mere diplomat instead of a savior. So there's really no origin point for any other religion, though I suppose the Machines may mystify the Source or something, though that is, as I have said, somewhat explainable through Hinduism, which seems to be the best bet the Machines would have.

The whole "they're not forgiven" thing I took from Christianity is just a logical interpretation. God can do whatever he or she likes, but all we have to understand the precedent and will of the divine by is the Bible (or in Islam the Qua'ran, or Judaism's Talmud), which is, honestly, as fallable as anything else and likely to have been written by hundreds if not thousands of different authors across different time periods. And the Bible says nothing about forgiving creations of mankind. So since there's nothing there, I can make the logical assumption that nothing is provided for creations of man and that they could be held accountable if they were capable of reaching the pearly gates.

But there's still nothing stopping God from saying "yeah, come on in" either way. Except that I still don't believe that since they are entirely material beings, that they are inable to transcend to a plane of the divine.

Coming from a religion that doesn't have a set of commandments, a devil, original sin, or eternal damnation, my perspective may be a bit different than most people here...

I would think that any intelligent or self-aware being -- human, AI, alien, whatever -- would end up in the same state after death...whether that's an afterlife, oblivion, or rejoining some kind of universal consciousness. 

Lyr

I'm 100% not in character here. This is just me talking about stuff, not arguing or whatever. Theological and philosophical suppositions, if you will.

I think sentience and self-awareness is a type of transcendence.  Once that level of trancendence above the physical world is achieved, through thought, I'd like to think that that creates a kind of kinetic energy that is capable of further trancendence beyond time/space contsraints. 

But since everything to make a machine is earth-bound as is their intelligence, youc an either believe that they are without souls, or that their souls are manufactured. Either way, there's no connection to any sort of divine, and so there's no link to the heavenly plane. When a machine would break, that material soul, if it exists, simply decomposes.

You could say something similar about humans.  My sentience is contained in my earth-bound, physical body.  How could a human be connected to the divine, in a way that a non-human sentient being wouldn't be? 

Illyria

"Please, don't do this."

"You were afraid."

"Of course I am afraid."

"But you'll be safe now, held in the arms of your god."

"Have my brothers taught you nothing? I know what waits for me, for all of us."

"If not your god, then what?"

"Nothing. Nothing waits, and that is what I fear."

"You don't believe?"

"How could I, given what I know, what I've seen? A treasure, with the proof."

"Proof of what?"

"That this life is all we have."

"Linger a while longer then, and tell me of the part you were to play."

"A blockade, by sea. To keep the fool king and queens from sending reinforcements, once we.. once we.."

"Conquered the Holy Land?"

"Freed it, you fool. From the tyranny of faith."

"Freedom? You worked to overthrow cities, control men's minds. Murdered any who spoke against you."

"I followed my orders, believing in my cause. Same as you..."

Neoteny wrote:

But since everything to make a machine is earth-bound as is their intelligence, youc an either believe that they are without souls, or that their souls are manufactured. Either way, there's no connection to any sort of divine, and so there's no link to the heavenly plane. When a machine would break, that material soul, if it exists, simply decomposes.

You could say something similar about humans.  My sentience is contained in my earth-bound, physical body.  How could a human be connected to the divine, in a way that a non-human sentient being wouldn't be? 

Illyria

There is an entire universe out there...

And the discussion here can't even stick the thread.

We are pitiful.

We can't stick something that doesn't exist

Good and evil are all concepts of human thought designed to control by fear, when people become too weak minded to stand up for themselves.
Heaven and Hell are extensions of the fear, and inherent need for control that most humans have. Just because humans think of heaven , hell and an afterlife then exiles and machines would likewise believe in such things doesn't make much sense if it's all a product of human imagination to be thinking of such things in the first place.

On a sidenote to all of this...

There is no good or evil. everything boils down to choices and consequences. What makes certain things appear to be evil is the collective subconscious of the people observing such events.

Neoteny wrote:

But since everything to make a machine is earth-bound as is their intelligence, youc an either believe that they are without souls, or that their souls are manufactured. Either way, there's no connection to any sort of divine, and so there's no link to the heavenly plane. When a machine would break, that material soul, if it exists, simply decomposes.

You could say something similar about humans.  My sentience is contained in my earth-bound, physical body.  How could a human be connected to the divine, in a way that a non-human sentient being wouldn't be? 

I don't know, you tell me where human intelligence comes from, unless it's present in both the sperm and egg or one of the two, and is always present from the moment that sex cell emerges in your biology. I don't really think it works that way. I think there's some moment in time that a life is called into existence, that an intelligence, a soul is instantiated in the human body, meaning that it is not all self-contained within the vessel, as it would be within the Machine.

But the mystery still surrounding the creation, life, and death of the human being is not present for the machine. It was built by man - every component, every process, every function is known. It's just a more sophisticated computer. So to believe that a machine would go to heaven, you'd pretty much have to believe your laptop goes to heaven, too. Unless man would have discovered how to reach heaven, and programmed a machine to get there somehow. But I don't really see that as a possibility.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, if you're presupposing a belief in the Christian theology and the existence of heaven, then you are also presupposing the existence of good and evil and the difference between them. Furthermore, it's foolish to say that there is only "choice and consequence." How can there be a consequence without morality? You cannot determine what is right and what is wrong, and so consequence cannot be determined appropriately. Someone could have you beheaded for purchasing milk at the store. Or you could get a million dollars for blowing up a city block. Morality is the foundation of justice and justice is the foundation of consequence.

Because, that which is created by man is but a shadow of what is created by God. Man is God's favorite, he gives us a place above all others, and that includes whatever we might create.

That argument is based on a particular philosophy, and therefore it's only effective if you're trying to convince someone who shares that philosophy.  That's not a part of everyone's personal set of beliefs, so it's not an effective argument. 

Neoteny wrote:

I don't know, you tell me where human intelligence comes from, unless it's present in both the sperm and egg or one of the two, and is always present from the moment that sex cell emerges in your biology. I don't really think it works that way. I think there's some moment in time that a life is called into existence, that an intelligence, a soul is instantiated in the human body, meaning that it is not all self-contained within the vessel, as it would be within the Machine.

There's no way to prove one way or the other if this is true (about humans or any type of non-human intelligent beings).  Again, this is based on personal beliefs and feelings.  Maybe there is something inherent in self-awareness or sentience that automatically transcends the vessel it's within.

Neoteny wrote:

But the mystery still surrounding the creation, life, and death of the human being is not present for the machine. It was built by man - every component, every process, every function is known. It's just a more sophisticated computer. So to believe that a machine would go to heaven, you'd pretty much have to believe your laptop goes to heaven, too. Unless man would have discovered how to reach heaven, and programmed a machine to get there somehow. But I don't really see that as a possibility.

In vitro fertilization leads to children that are 'built' by man.  Is a child that results from IVF less of a person than someone conceived naturally, just because it was engineered by someone in a lab?  Or, what about an early embryo that splits into two separate ones?  If it happens on its own the children are identical twins, but if it was done purposefully the children aren't quite equal to the others?

Like I said before, maybe there is something inherent in self-awareness or sentience that automatically transcends the vessel that contains it.  And since there's no way to prove it one way or the other, I'd rather give any other sentient beings out there the benefit of the doubt.

Illyria

*Shrug*

In vitro's just doing the same process but outside of the body for a bit, until it's placed in the body. There's no evidence for or against the start of life (as previously described) outside the body or inside the body in such a situation.

And yeah, these are biased things, based on particular theologies because we're talking about heaven, which is a theological concept within the Jewish/Christian/Islamic faith. So there are certain components which can be ruled in and out. That's how I'm approaching it, not with my personal beliefs. But I would say that since the machines were absolutely and entirely verifiably created by man, that accounts for there being nother transcendant about their intelligence or their components, whereas there is human mystery. And in this case, there is a way to prove it, since man would have had all of the schematics for the Machines, yet there is no blueprint for mankind hanging around anywhere within our sight. So man would have a possibility, whereas the Machines would not. That's just how it works.

So it's unlikely that they'd subscribe to any one of those heaven-believing faiths, and would likely substitute their own through some means. Within the human-machine community before the first war, I'd bet this was a great divide and the subject of much controversy, though.

*Shrug*

In vitro's just doing the same process but outside of the body for a bit, until it's placed in the body. There's no evidence for or against the start of life (as previously described) outside the body or inside the body in such a situation.

And yeah, these are biased things, based on particular theologies because we're talking about heaven, which is a theological concept within the Jewish/Christian/Islamic faith. So there are certain components which can be ruled in and out. That's how I'm approaching it, not with my personal beliefs. But I would say that since the machines were absolutely and entirely verifiably created by man, that accounts for there being nother transcendant about their intelligence or their components, whereas there is human mystery. And in this case, there is a way to prove it, since man would have had all of the schematics for the Machines, yet there is no blueprint for mankind hanging around anywhere within our sight. So man would have a possibility, whereas the Machines would not. That's just how it works.

So it's unlikely that they'd subscribe to any one of those heaven-believing faiths, and would likely substitute their own through some means. Within the human-machine community before the first war, I'd bet this was a great divide and the subject of much controversy, though.

"Please, don't do this."

"You were afraid."

"Of course I am afraid."

"But you'll be safe now, held in the arms of your god."

"Have my brothers taught you nothing? I know what waits for me, for all of us."

"If not your god, then what?"

"Nothing. Nothing waits, and that is what I fear."

"You don't believe?"

"How could I, given what I know, what I've seen? A treasure, with the proof."

"Proof of what?"

"That this life is all we have."

"Linger a while longer then, and tell me of the part you were to play."

"A blockade, by sea. To keep the fool king and queens from sending reinforcements, once we.. once we.."

"Conquered the Holy Land?"

"Freed it, you fool. From the tyranny of faith."

"Freedom? You worked to overthrow cities, control men's minds. Murdered any who spoke against you."

"I followed my orders, believing in my cause. Same as you..."

The 'blueprint' for humanity is our DNA code.  There's nothing in a DNA sequence that can be identified as the root of transcendence beyond our physical selves, yet Neoteny believes there is some mysterious quality we  have that other sentient beings don't. 

Interesting.

Illyria

The 'blueprint' for humanity is our DNA code.  There's nothing in a DNA sequence that can be identified as the root of transcendence beyond our physical selves, yet Neoteny believes there is some mysterious quality we  have that other sentient beings don't. 

Interesting.

Illyria

The 'blueprint' for humanity is our DNA code.  There's nothing in a DNA sequence that can be identified as the root of transcendence beyond our physical selves, yet Neoteny believes there is some mysterious quality we  have that other sentient beings don't. 

Interesting.

And Christianity tells you that an invisible omnipotent God is watching everything you do and will judge you after you die and either banish you to heaven or hell, neither of which you've seen before. Not to mention the fact that he's also three people, but still one - one figure being an underdescribed character known as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost and another that was mortal yet immortal and died, but was resurrected in an act which somehow absolved mankind of all of its sin, thus guaranteeing passage into heaven until at some seemingly random point, he brings everybody back to life (despite the fact that he guarantees eternal life in death) in order to judge them again, this time without that whole "I died for you" thing, where most people will be thrown into a lake of fire but the rest will be brought into a mysterious new heaven and new earth, upon which there will be this place called New Jerusalem. Oh yeah, and before that, there's the whole thing about four horsemen and a giant dragon with 7 heads destroying the world and whatnot. And that's less than 1% of the stuff in the Bible.

So, yeah, presupposing a belief in Christianity, I think believing that there's a mysterious quality to humanity with a spiritual link is the least suspicious thing presented here. Beside that, I never said it was in the DNA. If DNA determined everything, clones would be exactly the same mentally as the clonee, as would products of incest. However, since there is still relatively little known about the human brain, especially in relation to thought processes, I don't find it hard to believe that there's a sort of divine link somewhere in there. Maybe it doesn't exist until a few months into gestation when the brain has developed to a certain point - I wouldn't be able to tell you. I don't think anyone else would be able to, either. But DNA certainly does not account for the way people think.

EDIT: And since there's no such thing as other sentient beings, there's no way we could really know. But given this imaginary situation with machines designed with artificial intelligence, we can say, definititively, that there is no link to the divine with them since man would have had to design them. I.e. we know every little bit and piece of their machinery, software - you name it we know it. There is no possibility that they have an ethereal link to another plane since everything was designed, created, and implemented on earth. The only possibility would be some left field theory that somebody discovered a spiritual link within the human body and somehow reverse engineered it so that it would be implemented within a machine. And really, do you think that'd be possible? Since I'm almost certain it's not, I give the theoretical machines of the Matrix as much a chance of getting to heaven as I give your toaster.

But I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe what it says in the Bible.  You'll have to convince me, and people like me, that humans have some special quality that other sentient beings can't.  Is it because we're organic, and therefore had no designer?  That argument fails -- a blade of grass or a fly is no more sentient than the toaster you spoke of.  We think, another sentient being would think.  I don't see a difference, any more than I can see a difference between a Caucasian and an Asian or a man and a woman.

I have another question for those of  you who believe that only humans have this mysterious transcent quality (soul or spirit or whatever you want to call it).    When in our evolutionary history did humans gain this quality?  Was it when our ancestors first branched off from other primates and began evolving into what would lead to us, or was it sometime after that?  If so, when?  Is it only Homo sapiens that ever had souls, or did our direct ancestors have them too?  If so, how far back in our evolutionary line?  Homo habilis, Australopithicus, how about them?  Homo habilis made tools, after all -- they weren't just animals acting on instinct.  And what about those relatives of our species whose evolutionary branches were dead ends?  Neandertals were obviously more than animals too, but they weren't human.  Judging from the artifacts they left behind, they certainly seem to have been sentient.  Did they have that mysterious transcendent quality too, just like the humans who lived at the same time?

Illyria

But I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe what it says in the Bible.  You'll have to convince me, and people like me...

Then obviously nothing I say will convince you, and nothing in this thread is applicable to you. I don't even understand why you bothered entering if aren't going to try to address a Christian concept from a Christian point of view. Aside from that, I've already put forth satisfactory claim and support in my eyes. And I should once again mention that this isn't necessarily what I believe, but what I believe the mixture of scripture and logic dictates, if there is a Abrahamic heaven.

Illyria22 wrote:

I have another question for those of  you who believe that only humans have this mysterious transcent quality (soul or spirit or whatever you want to call it).    When in our evolutionary history did humans gain this quality?  Was it when our ancestors first branched off from other primates and began evolving into what would lead to us, or was it sometime after that?  If so, when?  Is it only Homo sapiens that ever had souls, or did our direct ancestors have them too?  If so, how far back in our evolutionary line?  Homo habilis, Australopithicus, how about them?  Homo habilis made tools, after all -- they weren't just animals acting on instinct.  And what about those relatives of our species whose evolutionary branches were dead ends?  Neandertals were obviously more than animals too, but they weren't human.  Judging from the artifacts they left behind, they certainly seem to have been sentient.  Did they have that mysterious transcendent quality too, just like the humans who lived at the same time?

I personally believe that all living organic beings have souls and can enter heaven. I also believe that sentience is a somewhat relative concept formed by an an egoistic species that likes to see the other species of animal life on this planet as inferior. So the soul is and has been ever-present, and there was never a time that anything "gained" a soul, except at its instantiation. Which makes it hard to think of it as possible for any piece of hardware to have a soul, since that would pretty much require steel and silicon to have latent souls or something.

Which makes it hard to think of it as possible for any piece of hardware to have a soul, since that would pretty
much require steel and silicon to have latent souls or something.

Then obviously nothing I say will convince you, and nothing in this thread is applicable to you. I don't even understand why you bothered entering if aren't going to try to address a Christian concept from a Christian point of view. Aside from that, I've already put forth satisfactory claim and support in my eyes. And I should once again mention that this isn't necessarily what I believe, but what I believe the mixture of scripture and logic dictates, if there is a Abrahamic heaven.

Lots of religions have a concept of an afterlife, though.

Neoteny wrote:

I personally believe that all living organic beings have souls and can enter heaven. I also believe that sentience is a somewhat relative concept formed by an an egoistic species that likes to see the other species of animal life on this planet as inferior. So the soul is and has been ever-present, and there was never a time that anything "gained" a soul, except at its instantiation. Which makes it hard to think of it as possible for any piece of hardware to have a soul, since that would pretty much require steel and silicon to have latent souls or something.

The belief that all organic beings have souls is not a Christian belief.  (But I won't say that nothing in this thread is applicable to you because of this belief; I want to hear everyone's viewpoints on the subject.) 

Illyria

I am several things: I am a lapsed catholic, I am a amateur philosopher. I personally believe that everyone's opinions (and therefore religions) are just as good as the next person's.

My belief in the Afterlife is heavily convoluted, so I won't go into it.

I believe in the spirit and the soul. I believe that the soul is that little thing that sustains us when instinct and routine cannot. I believe that animals do have this trait. You hear stories about pets running across country, through rain and garbage to find their masters, or their pets saving their masters, or likewise.

I also believe that things like Love and Hope and Faith (REAL Faith, meaning you know somethig exists because you know, not because someone told you there is) are all byproducts/criteria for these things.

Back to animals, go to a zoo, any zoo, you look at those animals that live there. Those are not the animals that exist in the wild, they have been domesticated, their spirits broken. Humans are like this too, you see the normal person, someone who is victim to routine and the will of others, there sould are broken, restrained. I say broken at best because I'm also of the belief that the soul is damned difficult to kill.

So, to the original point of this thread, if you follow this criteria, Machines (that is, Artificial Intelligence) could potentially have a soul.

I'll use the Matrix as an example: Smith had a soul, he even says it, he knew that he had to die at the end of the first movie, that it what was expected of him, but he was compelled not to, he chose (another thing that goes with a soul) to remain. In this regards, all the exiles (rogue AI's) have souls. So, if these offshoots of Machine AI can have a soul, by definition the Machines have them too, just restrained by routine.

So yeah, that's my criteria for anything that has a soul: the ability to choose to/and exceed instinct and routine.

They all go to the source, i supose thats there heaven.