[10.1.4] "...should be able to feed back through his broadcast signal" - Syntax - 4/29/08

For the simulation, Halborns departure is a good thing although we'll have to wait to see what Carlyne does now. If Carlyne leaves freely then I guess Zion could have a bargaining chip with the Machines, if not then it presents a problem once more. I'd hazard that Halborn and Carlyne are more vulnerable in the real then in the simulation but they still seem to have an edge with better (it seems) hovercraft at their command so yes, if Halborn does decide to take revenge on New Zion it's possible he could do some damage if he has adequate protection from EMP's.

There is also the possiblity that he may blame the Machines for his predicament but I think this is less likely as the Machines have mostly stipulated non-interference actions when it came to Halborn, whatever the rules are between the colony and the Machine civilisation I'd say that the Machines have followed them pretty closely, this worked in their favour when Halborn tried to make some demands during a mission a week or two ago.

For the simulation, Halborns departure is a good thing although we'll have to wait to see what Carlyne does now. If Carlyne leaves freely then I guess Zion could have a bargaining chip with the Machines, if not then it presents a problem once more. I'd hazard that Halborn and Carlyne are more vulnerable in the real then in the simulation but they still seem to have an edge with better (it seems) hovercraft at their command so yes, if Halborn does decide to take revenge on New Zion it's possible he could do some damage if he has adequate protection from EMP's.

There is also the possiblity that he may blame the Machines for his predicament but I think this is less likely as the Machines have mostly stipulated non-interference actions when it came to Halborn, whatever the rules are between the colony and the Machine civilisation I'd say that the Machines have followed them pretty closely, this worked in their favour when Halborn tried to make some demands during a mission a week or two ago.

I doubt we've seen the last of Halborne or Carlyne.

With the Oracel's shell having been deleted and Halborn now unable to enter the Matrix, perhaps the equation has found a way to balance itself out.

I'm guessing, however, that both Carlyne and the Architect, should he enter back into the Simulation, have the potential to give one side of it more weight - more so, should they choose to cooperate.

(Event started at 3:45 MCT and was running for about 1½-2 hour. Great zion event thanks to Harkee and Trepetia)

I think we did pretty good everyone for taking down Halborn. Zion and EPN worked to together on this so credit goes to everyone and now we atleast got a weapon to fight against Halborn.

Huh??  I never saw a Barrelhead Street Beanie on Halborn!

Zudrag: Halborn, be on your guard. Carlyne has a new trace program.

Um, what did you think Carlyne was trying to do?  And why did you not want him to do it?

Also, congratz to Coroebus for taking Halborn down, and to Mindsweep for having the coolest sig on this forum!

Only through the sacrifice of a valiant Zion crew, were we able to secure data as to Halborn’s broadcast signal. This information cost these soldiers their lives and provided Carlyne with the information to produce his weapon against Halbourn. I am proud to have been a member of the team who stopped Halbourn’s tyranny within the simulation, but the true heroes are those who gave their lives in The Real; in order to avail us of the opportunity.

Whilst I would not expect open words of thanks from The Machines for assisting in the preservation of their construct, some cessation to hostilities would seem a suitable form of recognition. Yet, even whilst Carlyne announces his corresponding departure from The Matrix, we are already seeing the return of The Machines’ aggressive intent towards Zion soldiers.

Humanity has suffered the loss of Life, in direct benefit to The Matrix and its populace. Does no-one else see the parallels with Neo’s last acts? Where is the equality within this symbiotic relationship which our two species hold?

A prime example of this inequity is how The Machines have withheld information as to the existence and nature of The Oligarchy. Machinists seem blind to the fact that their masters throw them scraps from their table and require their unerring obedience in return: they hold little more freedom than those who are still asleep in their pods.

((Thanks for the kind words. I did very little which deserves credit but I am very flattered by them, none the less; especially as to the people they come from.))

A prime example of this inequity is how The Machines have withheld information as to the existence and nature of The Oligarchy. Machinists seem blind to the fact that their masters throw them scraps from their table and require their unerring obedience in return: they hold little more freedom than those who are still asleep in their pods.

Why would Zion or even Machinists have needed to know about the colony? Apart from curiosity, what use to Zion or us would knowledge of it's existence have been? Humans getting along or living with Machines? What do you think most Machinists have been trying to achieve? If anything it proves our point that it can happen. 

If it wasn't for the intruders we still wouldn't know about it and the only people coming close to finding out something were the Mervs but even then they wouldn't have known about it specifically. Getting information is not always a right, much of the time it's either need to know or a priviledge, the same as any military and heirarchy. You think that the council and top Zion military members tell you everything? I doubt it. The term is information security.

We still have no idea as to the relationship that the Machines have with the colony's Oligarchy and the rules it is based on, so you can question the actions and information policy of the Machines all you want but for all you know, they may only be following the rules of their relationship with the colony.

Coro wrote:

A prime example of this inequity is how The Machines have withheld information as to the existence and nature of The Oligarchy. Machinists seem blind to the fact that their masters throw them scraps from their table and require their unerring obedience in return: they hold little more freedom than those who are still asleep in their pods.

Why would Zion or even Machinists have needed to know about the colony? Apart from curiosity, what use to Zion or us would knowledge of it's existence have been? Humans getting along or living with Machines? What do you think most Machinists have been trying to achieve? If anything it proves our point that it can happen. 

If it wasn't for the intruders we still wouldn't know about it and the only people coming close to finding out something were the Mervs but even then they wouldn't have known about it specifically. Getting information is not always a right, much of the time it's either need to know or a priviledge, the same as any military and heirarchy. You think that the council and top Zion military members tell you everything? I doubt it. The term is information security.

We still have no idea as to the relationship that the Machines have with the colony's Oligarchy and the rules it is based on, so you can question the actions of the Machines but for all you know, they may only be following the rules of their relationship with the colony.

May be you misinterpreted my last comments: they were a call for equality in the co-existence of Man and Machine. Whether the colony is an good example or not is neither here-nor-there in my view: it highlights a current disparity in the relationship, or tiers to how Humanity is treated by its Machine counterpart.

Information security is one thing, but "truth-will-out" eventually: New Zion for example. The Colony's existence is now known, yet your masters still do not avail you of even the vaguest details! This is no longer a "need-to-know" subject, as its existence is in the public domain. The Machines simply don't want to justify their actions and hope that more will, like you, be diverted from seeking answers.

From my mind, The Oligarchy is named as such for a reason and the connotations of this term could be far-reaching. Have you considered that the term refers to the entire colony? May be this is why Procurator finds the phrase so unpalatable. But, may be I'm wrong...

If I am right, then we are the obvious under-class. Do you not see that The Machines are still controlling what you believe to be true?! You are being fed information just like our time in the pods.

Equality never happens overnight, especially when a portion of the group that wants equality still shows signs of why that group ended up being unequal in the first place. Again I ask what advantage would we having in knowing details of the colony now, at this time? Why do they need to tell us superflous information? As I said, the rules that govern the relationship may prohibit the Machines passing on the information. The exisitence may no longer be need to know, it wasn't the Machines who gave out the information but members of the colony itself, but further information could well be need to know.

So we're being fed information? So what, Children are fed certain information whilst they are learning and gain more insight into subjects when they are old enough to comprehend and articulate the knowledge. Who's to say that he Machines are doing anything different.

First comes a truce, then trust, then after a time peace, only at this point is when both sides recognise each other as equals, an equality that slowly builds as the process happens. To expect anything else is ridiculous.

From my mind, The Oligarchy is named as such for a reason and the connotations of this term could be far-reaching. Have you considered that the term refers to the entire colony? May be this is why Procurator finds the phrase so unpalatable. But, may be I'm wrong...

Vinia: A skillful and well-written analogy, but is it not the child's thirst for learning which drives it to develop? You call for patience, but for how long? Is it not the child who ultimately dictates the pace of its learning?

Procurator: Yes, these are semantics I agree, and their inaccurate use at that. I seem to remember Agent Gray referring to the intruders as The Oligarchy, else I would have not used the term. In fact, describing the intruders as The Oligarchy is actually less descriptive. What I was trying to allude to is that the whole free-born colony is comprised of Oligarchs; the ruling elite. These individuals have been pardoned from pod life, due to some as yet unclassified quality. Thus, we form part of the oligarchy as the subservient under-class. Do you not question why you have been treated less favourably than other of your species? Who has made this choice?

As concerns the colony, my (over?) speculation on the subject has lead me to a rather bizarre and troubling theory: try and bear with me...

What if it is actually Humankind who won the historic War? Man could have found "himself" presiding over a ruined planet and utilised the technology of the defeated Machines, to create a virtual world to populate. The Machines then became janitors to this digital habitat, with a select few humans remaining outside the simulation; to over-see the mechanical caretakers.

At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I see more to validate this idea with every aspect I consider. What ever happened to The Merovingian's discovery that the pods produce little more than sufficient power to self-sustain, if even that? The Matrix no-longer becomes a viable power source and would be more easily explained as a life support system.

This scenario might interpret Halbourn's entry in to The Matrix as a maverick oligarch, who aimed to shatter the illusions of both Redpill and Bluepill alike. For all we know, the Biological Interface Program might have been sought in order to allow All the variance of an opportunity of Choice; rather than for selfish ends. Carlyne would then represent the opposing "Status Quo", and the preservation of both the oligarchs and The Matrix. Carlyne has provided almost all information we hold as to Halbourn's intentions, and it would be quite possible that his words were nothing more than propoganda and "spin"; to suit his ends. This would pose the ultimate irony, for Zion to have assisted in Halbourn's removal from the simualtion: thus, destroying the best chance of all Humanity being freed.

To add a qualifying statement: this is by no means "water-tight" and fully thought-through. I realise that I have made a number of "leaps" and I am not going to try and defend what appears above. I am simply suggesting a new perspective to the current situation. The way that this idea has bounced about my brain may well mean I have made a factual error and I welcome any "holes" which might disprove this theory. What it does do is show how very little we have which we can truely confirm as fact.

To return to my first points, it is for exactly this reason that further information must be sought from The Machines: we will then be in a better position to establish the truth behind recent events.

As concerns the colony, my (over?) speculation on the subject has lead me to a rather bizarre and troubling theory: try and bear with me...

What if it is actually Humankind who won the historic War? Man could have found "himself" presiding over a ruined planet and utilised the technology of the defeated Machines, to create a virtual world to populate. The Machines then became janitors to this digital habitat, with a select few humans remaining outside the simulation; to over-see the mechanical caretakers.

At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I see more to validate this idea with every aspect I consider. What ever happened to The Merovingian's discovery that the pods produce little more than sufficient power to self-sustain, if even that? The Matrix no-longer becomes a viable power source and would be more easily explained as a life support system.

This scenario might interpret Halbourn's entry in to The Matrix as a maverick oligarch, who aimed to shatter the illusions of both Redpill and Bluepill alike. For all we know, the Biological Interface Program might have been sought in order to allow All the variance of an opportunity of Choice; rather than for selfish ends. Carlyne would then represent the opposing "Status Quo", and the preservation of both the oligarchs and The Matrix. Carlyne has provided almost all information we hold as to Halbourn's intentions, and it would be quite possible that his words were nothing more than propoganda and "spin"; to suit his ends. This would pose the ultimate irony, for Zion to have assisted in Halbourn's removal from the simualtion: thus, destroying the best chance of all Humanity being freed.

To add a qualifying statement: this is by no means "water-tight" and fully thought-through. I realise that I have made a number of "leaps" and I am not going to try and defend what appears above. I am simply suggesting a new perspective to the current situation. The way that this idea has bounced about my brain may well mean I have made a factual error and I welcome any "holes" which might disprove this theory. What it does do is show how very little we have which we can truely confirm as fact.

To return to my first points, it is for exactly this reason that further information must be sought from The Machines: we will then be in a better position to establish the truth behind recent events.

Kudos to everyone involved in this Operation. Regardless of Halborn's intentions, his temper and attitude make him a threat to EVERYONE. Hoepfully this threat has been nuetralized, for a little while at any rate. ((Gah! sems like Im always at work these days when the good stuff goes down. This opne looked pretty fun))

As to the discussion that Coro has initiated, I have been of the opinion that the "humans as power" scenario for the Matrix is hogwash for a long time now.

See this past thread: Humans as power....

However, it seems clear to me that Halborn was in no way a proponent of human freedom or interests. He was here for some selfish reason of his own, and only incidentally exposed whatever group/place it is he and Carlyne come from. And while Carlyne has been somewhat forthcoming with details about Halborns condition and ship, he has not revealed anything about himself, and by extension the place/people he represents. This only furthers my suspiscion that they would rather we didn't know about them at all, and that they are resposible for things they'd rather we didn't know about.

In any case, it would seem that they are about to be revealed, as searchers are closing in on multiple fronts (not physically, of course, information-wise).

So... maybe we should all work together on this goal, seeing as it calls into question the validity of the very things we are fighting each other over. I for one think this makes more sense than continuing to battle, when we don't even know if our positions have any factual legitimacy.

This scenario might interpret Halbourn's entry in to The Matrix as a maverick oligarch, who aimed to shatter the illusions of both Redpill and Bluepill alike. For all we know, the Biological Interface Program might have been sought in order to allow All the variance of an opportunity of Choice; rather than for selfish ends. Carlyne would then represent the opposing "Status Quo", and the preservation of both the oligarchs and The Matrix. Carlyne has provided almost all information we hold as to Halbourn's intentions, and it would be quite possible that his words were nothing more than propoganda and "spin"; to suit his ends. This would pose the ultimate irony, for Zion to have assisted in Halbourn's removal from the simualtion: thus, destroying the best chance of all Humanity being freed.

I didn't get the impression that either Halborn or Carlyne cared one bit about Zion, the Matrix, or any of the humans from either. 

Illyria

Coro wrote:

As concerns the colony, my (over?) speculation on the subject has lead me to a rather bizarre and troubling theory: try and bear with me...

What if it is actually Humankind who won the historic War? Man could have found "himself" presiding over a ruined planet and utilised the technology of the defeated Machines, to create a virtual world to populate. The Machines then became janitors to this digital habitat, with a select few humans remaining outside the simulation; to over-see the mechanical caretakers.

At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I see more to validate this idea with every aspect I consider. What ever happened to The Merovingian's discovery that the pods produce little more than sufficient power to self-sustain, if even that? The Matrix no-longer becomes a viable power source and would be more easily explained as a life support system.

This scenario might interpret Halbourn's entry in to The Matrix as a maverick oligarch, who aimed to shatter the illusions of both Redpill and Bluepill alike. For all we know, the Biological Interface Program might have been sought in order to allow All the variance of an opportunity of Choice; rather than for selfish ends. Carlyne would then represent the opposing "Status Quo", and the preservation of both the oligarchs and The Matrix. Carlyne has provided almost all information we hold as to Halbourn's intentions, and it would be quite possible that his words were nothing more than propoganda and "spin"; to suit his ends. This would pose the ultimate irony, for Zion to have assisted in Halbourn's removal from the simualtion: thus, destroying the best chance of all Humanity being freed.

To add a qualifying statement: this is by no means "water-tight" and fully thought-through. I realise that I have made a number of "leaps" and I am not going to try and defend what appears above. I am simply suggesting a new perspective to the current situation. The way that this idea has bounced about my brain may well mean I have made a factual error and I welcome any "holes" which might disprove this theory. What it does do is show how very little we have which we can truely confirm as fact.

To return to my first points, it is for exactly this reason that further information must be sought from The Machines: we will then be in a better position to establish the truth behind recent events.

This theory or something close to it has been pitched before. It's possible I suppose, but I would then point out that if it has some basis in truth then it would be Humankind who are responsible for the destruction of Zion in the past and the killing of innocent people, not the Machines thus anger and hatred directed toward them is unjust and should, if the theory has some truth to it, be directed at the other Humans. I still hold to what I believe, that Mankind can live with the Machines in peaceful coexistence, it is just Mankind itself preventing it.

Being one who has pitched something simular to this I'm amazed that many don't seem to want to look into it further and so many Machinest are easiy quieted when Gray and Pace start bringing out the red tape. As you have already pointd out if any of these theories are true then that would mean that it is another segment of humanity that is behind this war and the war itself is nothing more than a sham used to keep us all in control.

So in short humanity is able to coexistence even with Zion burried further underground it is just we have a coloney of humans pulling all our strings and keeping us from doing so. Removeal of said group may then become a needed action to achieve said peace.

Oh, I highly doubt that the colony had any hand in setting up the Cycle, the War, Zion and so forth. The reason we've known so far for all those things is probably true: that the Architect's solution wasn't perfect and they needed some sort of system to keep the Matrix running.

At most, the colony just didn't care. The colony and Zero-One probably don't even interact very much. They just let the Machines maintain their little Cycle and trust that they don't let Zion or anyone else in their design make contact with the colony. Zero-One, in turn, lets the colony keep doing their thing. Maybe there's a trade of technology and resources, but I don't see the colony taking an active part in what Zero-One gets up to. Halborn didn't care about any of us and Carlyne seemed genuinely uneasy with meddling in our affairs at all.

Yes but Halbron's uncaring attitude mirrors how a king views his peasant's. In fact I believe he once referred to bluepills as being "slaves". A typical Zionite term for blues but being that he is not from Zion the context and meaning differ drastically. We also have to take into consideration that it is very unlikely that a colony of any sort is without it's share of humanitarians/humanist. Are we to assume that everyone in this colony is fine with allowing three hundred million people live as they do and over a million and a half die in an unneeded cycle/war?

Ok, so... Personally, I don't doubt at all that this "colony" might have had something to do with establishing the present "cycle" of human activity.

Reasons-

The Machines have virtually no use for us. I'm sorry but electricity is not a viable option. I have seen some theories floated that we might be harnessed for computing power (see NightTrace in my previous thread) but even this seems doubtful as sufficient cause for this rather elaborate system.

So here is what I theorize (note the use of this word, it is in fact, just a theory). Somehow, humanity has f'd up our world. Wheher it was through the war with the machines or some other means, the planet is largely uninhabitable without elaborate systems to mainain life. Considering the number of people being supported, machine control would be the most efficient and reliable way to maintain life support for hundreds of millions of people.

Furthermore, the Matrix is the kind of world MOST people want to live in. Most humans would not want to live in the cramped caves of Zion, even if we could dig big enough areas to support us all. In fact, I would suggest that if the situation were reversed, and most of humanity lived in cruddy caves and was OFFERED an oppurtunity to live in a simulated world, that the majority would choose to do so.

The problem is that humans would never be able to agree democratically on the form that a simulated world should take. There would be a constant flux of programming changes, people coming and going, there would be virtually no stability to such a system if humans were allowed to choose it and control it.

I believe that at some time in the past, a select group of humans realized this. They established the Matrix with the help of the AI that they had created, as a stable environment for the continuation of human kind. However, it was necessary in the programing to allow for humans desire to have choice. This in turn required the creation of an escape valve, Zion, and also possibly allowed for such anomalies as Neo [[I am assuming for IC purposes that none of us were present for that interview between the Archictect and Neo, and that such information is not widely known.]] Since such anomalies would introduce instability to the simualtion, they in turn needed to be kept in check. The best way to do this was to turn the energies and attentions of the awakened to battling against their apparent "oppressors", and disguise the fact that it was humans who chose to create the Matrix.

To support this are some things we know about the "colony". Halborn claimed to the Oracle to be "hundred's" of years old. Carlyne claims that he is as good as dead, perhaps in a coma. Seeing as he has a ship he can control, he must have been "plugged in" to some kind of onboard computer system, and has been so since before his arrival. He came searching for a "biological interface program", the purpose of which we do not know, but the name is suggestive.

I would suggest that BOTH Halborn and Carlyne exist in a state of physical stasis. I would further speculate that the entire "colony" exists that way. They have kept themselves alive so that they can monitor the Matrix, the situation they have created. I believe Halborn has essentially gone AWOL. He has grown tired of existing in stasis, and sought within the Matrix a program that would allow him to "interface" with a new biological body, thus changing his condition. He is able to overide the programming of the Matrix because he and his people helped create it in the first place. Carlyne came in order to prevent Halborn from achieveing his goal, and to perhaps mitigate his impact on the system. The colony, as such, would wish NOT to be discovered, and our true history revealed, as this might destabilize a system they have maintained for so long. They believe that the Matrix is the best way to keep humanity alive and relatively"happy".

And they may very well be right. We do in fact seem incapable of maintaining stable groups, peace, etc. The Matrix may sipmly be a convenient way to channel these aggressions.

Personally, I am concerned with only one thing: freedom of choice. Those that ACTIVELY seek awakening should be allowed to do so, and as such I will serve Zion to achieve that end. But I cannot support making war against the machines, with the end purpose of destroying the Matrix. To do so would deprive those who choose to stay of their freedom, and I am not a fascist.

In any case, time will tell whether my specualtions have any validity at all. In the meantime, again it seems as though we ought to focus on finding real answers to these questions.

You make a good theory, even If it doesn't turn out to be along the right lines.

I actually disagree there Proc. Part of my theory is that Zion is neccessary to maintain the stability of the simulation. The Cypherite belief that we should all go back to sleep is just hogwash. Just as much as the EPN/extreme Zionite position that we should all be awakened. Neither would improve upon our present condition. I do think that a re-establishement of the Truce would benefit us, especially if we managed to negotiate some real, defined terms.

In any, case, rather wandering from the main point now, he. And I do realize that humans being behind the Matrix is the longest stretch of my theory. Maybe these guys are just really uber-hackers, so they took the Matrix over   Time will tell i guess.