[10.1.2] There's been some damage to the file system - Vector - 4/10/08

Was going through my "I landed specials against Halborn pics" ..... and I saw one that... you have to see the System Chat for yourself....

My guess is that he was tinkering admin wise on the Halborn character...but...wow...

Random Idiot: The machines could, but ehh zion ccan't really fight for ****.

Kid: Good job we aren't Zion then.

Kid: Careful guys, I hear there are terrorists around here.

Classics.

Was going through my "I landed specials against Halborn pics" ..... and I saw one that... you have to see the System Chat for yourself....

Now that I think about it, with the "I'm glad we're not Zion" thing... They're in old Zion right now working with Jason Lock, fighting alongside the rest of the Zionites. How much more "Zion" can you possibly be?

I'll guess that our work with the EPN organization is over now, if the Kid say's they are not Zion's?? What are EPN then?

I'll guess that our work with the EPN organization is over now, if the Kid say's they are not Zion's?? What are EPN then?

So the Cypherite's are not Mech's then, if we follow the logic of the split organizations....and they not mervlings...EPN and Cyph should make one organization called CyhpEPN'rites

 CyhpEPN'rites

We are E Pluribus Neo, we know who we are, and so do our brothers and sisters in Zion.

Pentothal wrote:

We are E Pluribus Neo, we know who we are, and so do our brothers and sisters in Zion.

Well your not Zions, thats for sure.

Mindsweep wrote:

Pentothal wrote:

We are E Pluribus Neo, we know who we are, and so do our brothers and sisters in Zion.

Well your not Zions, thats for sure.

Just figure that out now?

Gerik wrote:

Mindsweep wrote:

Pentothal wrote:

We are E Pluribus Neo, we know who we are, and so do our brothers and sisters in Zion.

Well your not Zions, thats for sure.

Just figure that out now?

Looking at the history it took *CENSORED* long time before EPN found out by themself...

TonyJaa wrote:

The_Kid wrote:

 


 

((One of the best screen shots i've seen...))

My bright shining aura... Yes, I'm beautiful.

Legend Move, Nemesai rocks lol
Shame the Kid Spl0itZ!!!! lol

At the risk of stating the obvious. look at the context:

 Kid: ... Think you guys can handle those things?

Sputnik1220: Yes!   <----- EPN

ArchaeusPrius: no   <----- Zion

 Kid: Good thing we aren't Zion.  (An obvious dig at ArchaeusPrius, as observed by . . .)

roganclark: arch got pwnt

See less support from your so called brothers and sisters as I feel that you, EPN are using us Zionites (JB) to get what you need. It seem as though EPN don't mind stepping on others for what they need, with examples of bluepill deaths and the odd code bomb with no regards for their 'fellow man'.

Whether the comment was in jest of Arch or not, it is not taken lightly by true crusaders of the truth.

Good luck, you'll more then likely need it.

Your feelings and beliefs are of course your prerogative, soldier.

However, I will reiterate that the pluribus has done more to help Zion survive and retain it's assets than anyone else in this war. Not to mention that there are many in the Zion military that distanced themselves from us and called us out as truce-breakers long before this war hit a head again. Furthermore, I would have expected more than petty accusations of code-bomb useage and willfully killing bluepills from a captain and leader in Zion's ranks. We DON'T use codebombs, and since the Machines found out about Zion's new home, you all have gone to some of the same lengths that we have to end this fight.

A simple answer to your question is yes - In my opinion, Zion needs us and we need them, even if some of us on either side don't acknowledge it at times.

I think that any group made of men endure these types of stresses at times. I wouldn't be too quick to declare an all-out schism between Zion and the Pluribus, just like I wouldn't do so with the Cypherites and Machinists - though I've seen many on the machine-aligned end bickering and even working against each other in some instances for longer than we have.

While I can agree that a difference in opinion or policy or philosophy are not usually things that strengthen both groups, differences are necessary in some instances. Words from a few operatives will not deter the Pluribus from helping Zion, just as a remark that was in jest will not deter Zion as a whole from working with us. It is in our best interest, as we have common goals and common enemies. It doesn't necessarily mean that we will always get along and see things the same way, though.

As this isn't a situation where overt Machinists would even see the walls of Zion, I also wouldn't declare (as a Machinist)what the people of Zion think as far as the means to end this war. I do believe, however that the majority of us, Pluribus or Zion, understand that going out and rebuilding "peace" with the Machines is far from being as easy as it is described in the previous statement - it just isn't that simple. I'm not sure about individual Machinists, but Agents and the rest of the system don't negotiate with us "terrorists", Zion included.

Who said we didn't like the idea of peace? I have stated here and in the Matrix on many channels and with people of all the organizations that I want peace. I represent the ideology of Michael and Shimada when I speak, and I did so with full confidence. But as I have said earlier, a few Machinists may see the need to talk and come to an agreement, but the Machines themselves don't, and nothing is really going to change until that does.

I can't speak for some of the other officers and the leaders of Zion, but Michael admitted there are differences, Pentothal did, and so have I. None of us denied that there isn't, or suggested otherwise.

However, the more important issue in all this is whatever Halborn is after, he can't be allowed to get, and all those involved, Pluribus and Zion, did a fine job in protecting our resources.

Who said we didn't like the idea of peace? I have stated here and in the Matrix on many channels and with people of all the organizations that I want peace. I represent the ideology of Michael and Shimada when I speak, and I did so with full confidence. But as I have said earlier, a few Machinists may see the need to talk and come to an agreement, but the Machines themselves don't, and nothing is really going to change until that does.

I can't speak for some of the other officers and the leaders of Zion, but Michael admitted there are differences, Pentothal did, and so have I. None of us denied that there isn't, or suggested otherwise.

However, the more important issue in all this is whatever Halborn is after, he can't be allowed to get, and all those involved, Pluribus and Zion, did a fine job in protecting our resources.

Zion and EPN are two entirely different entities. This is true. Argue all you want, it's the truth, and there's just nothing more to it. They split from us, and we did not share a common goal until the war began.

If you want to point fingers at the coincidance of goals between Zion and EPN, you can point them at the Machines.

Many Zion captains such as myself greatly opposed the rise of EPN simply because we knew that everyone would point fingers and claim that they were secretly funded and supported by Zion when they were not, and that this would undermine the Truce agreement. Much like the Cypherites, except that (they were and are sponsored by the machines and) we knew that the Machines, Machinists, and Cypherites wouldn't believe us, even if they had no proof to the contrary and we told them there was no relation. There's really no way for us to disown them because they were the ones who disowned us, they split off from us quite a while ago.

I'll be the first to say that EPN has lent a great hand in this war, and that I wouldn't want to see them forgotten in the future. I acknowledge and respect them as comrades in this war and would oppose any sort of peace agreement which did not take their opinions into consideration.

Well that's odd... EPN would like peace. The only way I've ever heard EPN wanting peace with the Machines is either with them being destroyed or returned to Mankind's servants. EPN operated outside the truce, being disavowed by the Council, not a sign of wanting peace is it? Free Humanity is one of the main goals of EPN is it not? Without Humankind the Machines will die, no matter what spin you put on it. If you want peace what are you fighting for?

Funny how it's always the Machines that are reluctant to talk, I've not heard anything about the Zion council requesting a meeting be held about steps to a truce with Machine representatives let alone EPN doing anything like that. The Machines have been convinced before about a truce, true it was exceptional circumstances, but they listened. I'm not even gonna assume what the deal is with Halborn's and Carlyne's colony and the Machines.

I would be truly happy if you, personally, really did want peace with the Machines, as that idea may spread through the rest of EPN, but I doubt it.

Then you have talked to very few true members of EPN and only foolish zealots. My fleet all shares the same belief that while we are currently at war the only way for peace to truly be achieved is for everyone to stand on equal ground. Genocide of any sentient being is not a option but some sacrifices have to be made until people are willing to come to this agreement (and I speak not only of Machine sacrifice) but not that bastardization of the "peace" called the "truce" but actual peace. EPN did what it did during the truce for that very reason. Man-kind was still being oppressed and controlled when we were promised freedom and what was worse is that many under that control were never allowed the chance to say differently or even allowed to know it existed.

And your one to talk about spinning when you yourself just spun our own goal. Never have we wanted everyone to be free, this creates to many problems one of which you pointed out, our goal has always been to give everyone the choice of freedom and then freedom itself. Something the Machine only gave the special few the chance to do.

And we would all love to talk but your terms as of now suck. Especially when you go and destroy the very city you were asking Zion to return to.

I admire Neoteny's honesty and people that understand like him make working with Zion completely worth it.

I think that there is a lot that you still have to learn about us yet, Vinia. I've been available to speak with operatives and representatives from other organizations and I will remain that way if there are any further questions.

The road to peace is a long one and the truce was a vehicle. The Machines did not trust Humanity and rightly so considering what it tried to do to them in the beginning so yeah the terms of the truce which were stacked in the Machines favour didn't give much to Mankind to begin with. The Architect didn't promise freedom, not to everyone. He said that those who want out i.e. those who didn't accept the simulation could be freed. The truce was a means to built trust over time between Machines and Humans to so Mankind could gain better terms and eventually end up at peace, but it wasn't appreciated, Mankind was impatient.

If genocide of an intelligent race isn't an option, why did EPN plan to bomb or disrupt the power lines heading to the Machine city?

The terms for talking may not have been in your favour but they were still offered by the Machines something which Zion and EPN have yet to do, no counter terms were offered to the Machines, there was no attempt at negotiation. I wonder if you'd have taken those terms if the Machines had gotten past New Zion's defences?

And how can you allow everyone that wants out to be let out when you only allow 1% of those inside the simulation the chance to choose? That's what it all came down to. Zion didn't worry about this but some couldn't stand to see such a blatant display of perversion to Neo's intended vision. And why so quick to judge Zion when their inpatients was sparked by Machine invasion by the means of the Cypherites?

EPN's plan to attack the power-lines was one of those sacrifices i mentioned. We are at war after all and you can't expect attempts at your enemies jugular to go unanswered. The strike on the power-lines was during a time when the Machine was in full press against Zion and removing a source of power is logical to slow down an oncoming threat is it not? The attack was not an attempt to destory the Machine, only slow it down.

Lastly Zion has made attempts. On the Recursion instance there have been a number of meetings between the two orgs to try and push towards peace. But its hard to make counter terms with bullets being fired at you until you agree to the only one given. The Machine has made it clear that the only terms they are going to accept are there own and that is the removal of Zion from New Zion. But to answer your question no, Zion has never been interested in pity bargains.

I have a question.  I'm not sure if anyone will be able to answer it, or if they'll want to answer it, but I am curious. 

Now that there is no truce, and the Machines are at war with Zion (and EPN), how do the Zion and EPN organizations differ?  There was a time when Zion abided by the truce and EPN didn't...now that there is no truce, is there any real difference?

Illyria

I have a question.  I'm not sure if anyone will be able to answer it, or if they'll want to answer it, but I am curious. 

Now that there is no truce, and the Machines are at war with Zion (and EPN), how do the Zion and EPN organizations differ?  There was a time when Zion abided by the truce and EPN didn't...now that there is no truce, is there any real difference?

Illyria

I have a question.  I'm not sure if anyone will be able to answer it, or if they'll want to answer it, but I am curious. 

Now that there is no truce, and the Machines are at war with Zion (and EPN), how do the Zion and EPN organizations differ?  There was a time when Zion abided by the truce and EPN didn't...now that there is no truce, is there any real difference?

Illyria

As long, as we are not one organization, there will always be a difference between Zion and EPN. Like Cyph's and Machines. When it comes to Truce talk, I'm sure most of the Zion's and EPN's want a peaceful solution. If it's not a new "Truce" agreement then something else that can stop this war. I think it's all mater of when the Mech's are going to step foward and let us have this talk, wihtout having us all drop our weapons first. We do work together a lot, maybe it's not showed much out in the open, but there is a reason for that.

The difference is the same as the difference between The Machine and Cypherites. The two have the same overall goals but have different means of achieving and different priorities.

The original goals of the (human) Cypherites and the Machinists were very different, even though the idea behind the Cypherite organization was that it would be a counter to Zion extracting more than the 1% that rejected the Matrix.  Most Cypherites at that time talked about reinserting redpills, even those who were happy with their lives outsite the Matrix, and they were against any new people being extracted.  Most Machinists did not believe in this.  Most Machinists supported the extraction of those who rejected the simulation, and we didn't want anyone reinserted who didn't want to go back.  Both groups did share a distrust of Zion (to varying degrees) but most Machinists were less hostile towards Zion than the Cypherites were.  The Cypherites placed themselves outside the truce; most Machinists that I knew supported the truce wholeheartedly. 

Cypherites, correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought your org believed that the war with Zion hadn't ended, even with the truce.  And now, since the truce fell and the Machines and Zion went to war again, our goals have become more similar.  We want to protect the Matrix and the bluepills from attacks by Zionites (and EPN) and we would like any threats from Zion to be nullified.  But most Machinists that I've spoken with are open to another truce, or a real peace between Zion and the Machines.  I'm not sure how the Cypherites feel about this...maybe they could elaborate.

Illyria

The original goals of the (human) Cypherites and the Machinists were very different, even though the idea behind the Cypherite organization was that it would be a counter to Zion extracting more than the 1% that rejected the Matrix.  Most Cypherites at that time talked about reinserting redpills, even those who were happy with their lives outsite the Matrix, and they were against any new people being extracted.  Most Machinists did not believe in this.  Most Machinists supported the extraction of those who rejected the simulation, and we didn't want anyone reinserted who didn't want to go back.  Both groups did share a distrust of Zion (to varying degrees) but most Machinists were less hostile towards Zion than the Cypherites were.  The Cypherites placed themselves outside the truce; most Machinists that I knew supported the truce wholeheartedly. 

Cypherites, correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought your org believed that the war with Zion hadn't ended, even with the truce.  And now, since the truce fell and the Machines and Zion went to war again, our goals have become more similar.  We want to protect the Matrix and the bluepills from attacks by Zionites (and EPN) and we would like any threats from Zion to be nullified.  But most Machinists that I've spoken with are open to another truce, or a real peace between Zion and the Machines.  I'm not sure how the Cypherites feel about this...maybe they could elaborate.

Illyria

You asked about how they differ now, not during the truce and I am only stating their perceived organizational philosophy. I'm sure every person within the org has their own ideas about peace just as operatives of the Machine do. But when speaking of the organization directly a much more limited general answer is needed and that is that the two share the same goals but go about them in different ways in a different order.

And yes our view was that the war had not ended, it was simply a "cold war" and because of we went about things differently. Zion had to stay within the confines of the truce so as not to make it a real war, while EPN could do whatever it wanted sence it was no longer under the authority of Zion or apart of the truce. When the war restarted the two found themselvesin the same position.

But Zion went on the defencive to protect itself from the machine onslaught while EPN went offencive to slow the Machine down. Also EPN still keeps freeing bluepills as a top priority. Zion not so much (not to say they don't). While the Machine is much more worried about protect the system, Zion worries about protection from the system. Cypherites try and keep extractions from happening while EPN makes them happen. Each group however shares there "splits" similar goal (EPN protecting itself from the system, machines wanting to stop extractions) just places it below their differing primary.

And how can you allow everyone that wants out to be let out when you only allow 1% of those inside the simulation the chance to choose? That's what it all came down to. Zion didn't worry about this but some couldn't stand to see such a blatant display of perversion to Neo's intended vision. And why so quick to judge Zion when their inpatients was sparked by Machine invasion by the means of the Cypherites?

EPN's plan to attack the power-lines was one of those sacrifices i mentioned. We are at war after all and you can't expect attempts at your enemies jugular to go unanswered. The strike on the power-lines was during a time when the Machine was in full press against Zion and removing a source of power is logical to slow down an oncoming threat is it not? The attack was not an attempt to destory the Machine, only slow it down.

Lastly Zion has made attempts. On the Recursion instance there have been a number of meetings between the two orgs to try and push towards peace. But its hard to make counter terms with bullets being fired at you until you agree to the only one given. The Machine has made it clear that the only terms they are going to accept are there own and that is the removal of Zion from New Zion. But to answer your question no, Zion has never been interested in pity bargains.

Everyone chooses, that what the Oracle enabled, the subconcious choice. What chance would the simulation have if you went around and literally told everyone that it was fake but they could stay there if they want. As for Neo's vision, unless you knew exactly what he wanted you cannot claim any perversion happened to it. As far as we all know he asked for peace. Peace is not something that can be attained just like that but he paved the way for it by way of the truce. It is EPN who perverted the vision by operating outside the truce and risked breaking it, this is why Zion disavowed EPN. Zion began to plan New Zion almost from the start of the truce, Niobe admitted this, building began when she was held trapped by the Unlimits. This was before the Cypherites were even thought up. Certainly before any 'invasion' which only happened after the fall of the truce.

Funny how, if EPN really wanted peace, they'd plan to go and destroy the powerlines as retaliation. Thats not an action of wanting peace, thats an action of violance which just shows that you weren't interested in peace. Until you know for sure, those lines come from the only power source not a power source. I don't doubt that the Machines have some stored but do you think that there would be no disruption? You have no idea what would happen if those lines were disrupted, all that it was done for was to show the Machines you weren't going to back down and that peace wasn't an option.

As for peace attempts, has Lock, Roland, Ghost, Niobe had meetings with Gray or Pace specifically for peace? I've not heard of any and the words of soldiers with soldiers don't carry any weight in diplomacy. It's not exactly hard to send a message with counter terms to your opposition, you can even do it electronically if you want to avoid the bullets. Until counter terms are presented you have no idea that the Machines would only accept, but I am talking about negotiating terms for allowing talks to take place, not peace, that would be taken care of at the talks.