[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08

Aww... That wasn't nice.

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Jesus, you really think that was what I was saying?

No - it's just that there's no more cause for conflict among men without the Matrix or the Machines. What's a Machinist without the Machines? There would be no causes.

Anything anyone would conceive of fighting over would be over trivial differences that once existed, or trivial differences that would come up in the future. If you wouldn't want peace in that situation, that's your perogative. But the human cause would be the only one left.

Would there be conflict? Yes, I have never denied this. But it would certainly be better than the absolute stranglehold we are currently in.

The possibility of violence is weighs less to me on the scale of fear than the assurance of violence.

Jesus, you really think that was what I was saying?

No - it's just that there's no more cause for conflict among men without the Matrix or the Machines. What's a Machinist without the Machines? There would be no causes.

Anything anyone would conceive of fighting over would be over trivial differences that once existed, or trivial differences that would come up in the future. If you wouldn't want peace in that situation, that's your perogative. But the human cause would be the only one left.

Would there be conflict? Yes, I have never denied this. But it would certainly be better than the absolute stranglehold we are currently in.

The possibility of violence is weighs less to me on the scale of fear than the assurance of violence.

Your two statements here contradict themselves. With little resources left there would most definitely be cause for conflict. As Illyria says humanity wouldn't come together under any unified cause.  There would be internal disputes for leadership, people trying to control resources for their own group of people, just like in any other human society. This has been seen time and time again especially over precious resources that don't extend to everyone.

Zion will be the biggest force holding almost all the resources, power, water, food... Funny how you say simply about everyone else wanting peace when you're the one holding all the cards isn't it, do you not see any similarities with the current situation?

If the possiblity of violance is preferred over assurance of violance, why was New Zion built? There was no assurance of violance then, distrust certainly, but Zion wasn't attacked by the Machines until it broke the truce.

Neoteny, if we all woke up one day and the Machines and the Matrix were gone, humanity wouldn't come together under any unified cause.  There would be power grabs, people trying to set themselves up as an elite, just like in any other human society. 

Oh, and there would definitely be no uniting with Zion or EPN, if they had anything to do with why the Machines were gone. 

Illyria

It would seem that words are wasted on you when you look at only a small portion of what is said and miss the larger point.

I said there would be no cause not that there would be no conflict. Conflict occurs each day without cause.

And, I will tell you for what is likely to be the billionth time that we never broke the Truce. And therefore, we never knew that building a city with proven defensive-only structures would trigger an onset of Machine hostilities. We are incapable of attack on such a grand scale, and this has been proven over the course of nearly a year.

We did however suppose that the Machines might initiate hostilities because they didn't like the idea of us having a fortified city beyond the reaches of their attacks, which is why the building operation was kept secret. However, we also supposed that the army of 500,000 sentinels hovering just outside the old city might one day swipe down and destroy our old city on a whim, or because we did something the Machines didn't like and we just hadn't realized it. In such a situation, the need for survival took precedence, and the weight of absolute protection outweighed the mere possibility of it (I'm not even going to say probability with the way we'd been attacked by Machine-sponsored Cypherites during the Truce). As Niobe said, we had to move because they had us dead to rights. And they knew it, and they took advantage of it.

And I'm going to stop making replies to your rather not only ridiculous, but pessimistic and warmongering attempts at speculating the future of the human race. I realize that this is going nowhere new, now, because there is a thread from ages ago with a million quotes in lots of pretty colors that you can re-read if you really want to know stances about the construction of New Zion and the like.

But know this: If you really want a conflict even without the Machines, without the Matrix? I can most certainly make sure you're dead enough that you won't cause it.

Neoteny, if we all woke up one day and the Machines and the Matrix were gone, humanity wouldn't come together under any unified cause.  There would be power grabs, people trying to set themselves up as an elite, just like in any other human society. 

Oh, and there would definitely be no uniting with Zion or EPN, if they had anything to do with why the Machines were gone. 

Illyria

In this scenario, the only survivors would be Zion, New Zion and all the hovercrafts left to run on battery power until they run out of juice.

Without the Matrix, there is no power except in the two cities which are already established and fortified. There's far less room for power grabs and far more room for Zion and EPN (which have established leaderships and sustainable, protected cities in the real) to work together. 

Suddenly the Mervs, Machinists and Cypherites have nothing but the hovercrafts they are left stranded in. Join Zion or EPN, or die. Not even a unified attack would be capable of overtaking old Zion or New Zion.

The power grabs you predict simply can't happen because the absence of the Matrix and the Machines in no way effects the established leadership of the two orgs who have total control of the only two cities in the real.

I said there would be no cause not that there would be no conflict. Conflict occurs each day without cause.

And, I will tell you for what is likely to be the billionth time that we never broke the Truce. And therefore, we never knew that building a city with proven defensive-only structures would trigger an onset of Machine hostilities. We are incapable of attack on such a grand scale, and this has been proven over the course of nearly a year.

We did however suppose that the Machines might initiate hostilities because they didn't like the idea of us having a fortified city beyond the reaches of their attacks, which is why the building operation was kept secret. However, we also supposed that the army of 500,000 sentinels hovering just outside the old city might one day swipe down and destroy our old city on a whim, or because we did something the Machines didn't like and we just hadn't realized it. In such a situation, the need for survival took precedence, and the weight of absolute protection outweighed the mere possibility of it (I'm not even going to say probability with the way we'd been attacked by Machine-sponsored Cypherites during the Truce). As Niobe said, we had to move because they had us dead to rights. And they knew it, and they took advantage of it.

And I'm going to stop making replies to your rather not only ridiculous, but pessimistic and warmongering attempts at speculating the future of the human race. I realize that this is going nowhere new, now, because there is a thread from ages ago with a million quotes in lots of pretty colors that you can re-read if you really want to know stances about the construction of New Zion and the like.

But know this: If you really want a conflict even without the Machines, without the Matrix? I can most certainly make sure you're dead enough that you won't cause it.

In this scenario, the only survivors would be Zion, New Zion and all the hovercrafts left to run on battery power until they run out of juice.

Without the Matrix, there is no power except in the two cities which are already established and fortified. There's far less room for power grabs and far more room for Zion and EPN (which have established leaderships and sustainable, protected cities in the real) to work together. 

Suddenly the Mervs, Machinists and Cypherites have nothing but the hovercrafts they are left stranded in. Join Zion or EPN, or die. Not even a unified attack would be capable of overtaking old Zion or New Zion.

The power grabs you predict simply can't happen because the absence of the Matrix and the Machines in no way effects the established leadership of the two orgs who have total control of the only two cities in the real.

r3spon5e wrote:

In this scenario, the only survivors would be Zion, New Zion and all the hovercrafts left to run on battery power until they run out of juice.

Without the Matrix, there is no power except in the two cities which are already established and fortified. There's far less room for power grabs and far more room for Zion and EPN (which have established leaderships and sustainable, protected cities in the real) to work together. 

Suddenly the Mervs, Machinists and Cypherites have nothing but the hovercrafts they are left stranded in. Join Zion or EPN, or die. Not even a unified attack would be capable of overtaking old Zion or New Zion.

The power grabs you predict simply can't happen because the absence of the Matrix and the Machines in no way effects the established leadership of the two orgs who have total control of the only two cities in the real.

The power grabs that Illyria mentioned weren't just about Mech, Merv and Cypherites, she was also talking about internal power struggles. Without  focus on the Machines, mankind will revert to how it's always been in civilisation; crime, wealth, power. With power comes corruption. Suddenly working for the good of all Mankind reduces to the good of the few in each group over others. Basic instincts and nature, that is what influences people, there are always a few who ignore them but a great deal more who listen to them. Perhaps not at first not for a year or two, but it is inevitable.

So you and Illyria hope.

The power grabs you predict simply can't happen because the absence of the Matrix and the Machines in no way effects the established leadership of the two orgs who have total control of the only two cities in the real.

What about Halborn and Carlyne's colony?  Zion and EPN don't have control over that place...and from what I can gather by what both of them have said, they couldn't care less about redpills or bluepills.  Just that their power supply isn't disrupted.

Illyria