Free Topic "Source Material" debate

The whole Oracle/Sati/Rama-Kandra/Kamala thing bugs me.

If Rama-Kandra betrayed the Oracle to the Merv, why would they ask her to take care of their kid? The only thing I can come up with is that the Oracle told them to go to the Merv to get Sati into the Matrix, but then, why would an Exile go to the Oracle? And, why would Rama-Kandra have the codes to kill the Oracle? And why would the Oracle allow this to happen if she had calculated the probability of the attempt on her life?

And if Kamala was such a gifted interactive software designer, what did she create in making Sati? Just how special is this kid? Was she a 'made-to-order' program for the Oracle?

And if she was scheduled to be deleted, why aren't Machines still after her? Hmm. . .perhaps this is more proof that the Oracle is actually still working/loyal to the Machines and she gets to keep Sati? 

There is something here, I just can't put my finger on it.

Good questions.

I believe that Sati was innocently made by Rama and Kamala.  Once the Oracle came to know about Sati, however she did, she persuaded them to allow her to take care of Sati.  In order to do so, they'd have to have something Merv wanted.  In this case, the Oracle's killcode for costing him the Keymaker.  She offers it up to Rama and gets Sati in return. 

I have a feeling she knew she'd survive and was counting on it.  Based on talk with Neo, it's probably not the first time she was "killed" or at the very least knows another program who survived their own killcode.

Sati is special particularly because she's free.  She knows no purpose and is not bound to anything other than what she desires.  Because of that, the Matrix is her playground.  The Oracle sees a lot of potential in that and could mold her into something great.  Imagine the next phase of evolution - a program free, serving no master or purpose.  In EtM, the Oracle alludes to Sati being important to both worlds.  I think this is why.

As far as the Oracle herself is concerned, I do not think she's hunted by the Machines.  I believe she continues to serve her purpose and is not scheduled for deletion as she is integral to the current version's design.  Seraphs merely serves to protect her from any other threats, like Merv.

Good questions.

I believe that Sati was innocently made by Rama and Kamala.  Once the Oracle came to know about Sati, however she did, she persuaded them to allow her to take care of Sati.  In order to do so, they'd have to have something Merv wanted.  In this case, the Oracle's killcode for costing him the Keymaker.  She offers it up to Rama and gets Sati in return. 

I have a feeling she knew she'd survive and was counting on it.  Based on talk with Neo, it's probably not the first time she was "killed" or at the very least knows another program who survived their own killcode.

Sati is special particularly because she's free.  She knows no purpose and is not bound to anything other than what she desires.  Because of that, the Matrix is her playground.  The Oracle sees a lot of potential in that and could mold her into something great.  Imagine the next phase of evolution - a program free, serving no master or purpose.  In EtM, the Oracle alludes to Sati being important to both worlds.  I think this is why.

As far as the Oracle herself is concerned, I do not think she's hunted by the Machines.  I believe she continues to serve her purpose and is not scheduled for deletion as she is integral to the current version's design.  Seraphs merely serves to protect her from any other threats, like Merv.

Hmm. I don't know if I can agree with the innocent idea. Machines don't do anything without purpose, after a few hundred years (at least) it's hard to imagine a couple of Machines saying "ah, screw it, let's just go have a beer and make a baby." Sati may have been loved by her parents, but there was something else driving Kamala to write that particular program.

Also, the Oracle just 'coming to know about Sati' doesn't make much sense, and what doesn't make sense even more than that is that the Oracle just decides to risk everything and sacrifice herself to save this kid? That would be fine if Sati were as important or even more important than Neo, but for all intents and purposes (via the story so far), she isn't.

I like your perception of Sati's future importance, it's sort of sublime in its simplicity.

And I didn't mean the Oracle's deletion. As you pointed out, why would they delete something that is serving its purpose? I meant Sati. Just the fact that the Agents were carrying out Program Deletions meant that if a program were marked for deletion, it would be doggedly pursued by an Agent until terminated, right? So, why isn't Sati dead yet?

Hmm. I don't know if I can agree with the innocent idea. Machines don't do anything without purpose, after a few hundred years (at least) it's hard to imagine a couple of Machines saying "ah, screw it, let's just go have a beer and make a baby." Sati may have been loved by her parents, but there was something else driving Kamala to write that particular program.

Also, the Oracle just 'coming to know about Sati' doesn't make much sense, and what doesn't make sense even more than that is that the Oracle just decides to risk everything and sacrifice herself to save this kid? That would be fine if Sati were as important or even more important than Neo, but for all intents and purposes (via the story so far), she isn't.

I like your perception of Sati's future importance, it's sort of sublime in its simplicity.

And I didn't mean the Oracle's deletion. As you pointed out, why would they delete something that is serving its purpose? I meant Sati. Just the fact that the Agents were carrying out Program Deletions meant that if a program were marked for deletion, it would be doggedly pursued by an Agent until terminated, right? So, why isn't Sati dead yet?

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree.  "Purposeless" doesn't really make much sense in regards to the actions of machine program.  I'm merely thinking that Sati's creation may not necessarily have been as a result of the Oracle's meddling, however it does lend more credit to how the Oracle came to know about it.  I guess after thinking more on it, I'm going to go with your presumption.

Thanks for clearing up the deletion matter.  I did misread that.  It could be she hasn't been deleted because she is under the care of the Oracle or it could also be that her creation was planned from the beginning.  There's certainly more than meets the eye with her.

I've always thought there was more to her than the typical perception of "some little girl who controls weather".  The mere fact that she, an exile, manipulated the Matrix out of sheer desire to honor Neo is astounding in itself.  I'm hoping we see more as the story continues.

This is more about one scene than a whole topic/theme but I thought this would be a good place to post it as I don't think it should have it's own thread.

In Reloaded where Neo fought the exiles in the Chateau why didn't he simply send the bullets he stopped back to the exiles therefore taking them all out at once? I suppose the simple explanation is it's a movie and a fight scene is more fun but there's also the question of surely someone would have tripped from all those bullets on the floor?

I suppose this could be part of a theme of things that are explained by the fact that it's a movie.

• In the first movie, time isn't simply bound to the year 1999, we also see the year 1998.
• In The Matrix Reloaded, technological advancement is evident, newer car models are displayed.
• In The Animatrix, one of the more cannonical episodes beside The Final Flight of the Osiris or The Second Renaissance I & II, Beyond displays the year 1999.
• In The Matrix Online, a ticket stub is posted in an official Live Events report, with the year "2006" printed on it. I don't care what retcon excuse is used to wipe away that blemish on the record that it isn't perpetually 1999. It seems like that was retconned mostly because of player reaction, in which I aswell, foolishly had been brainwashed into believing, back then, that it was perpetually 1999. That was a concept brought up by marketing.

My own topic of choice: Time in the Matrix. It isn't perpetually 1999.

• In the first movie, time isn't simply bound to the year 1999, we also see the year 1998.
• In The Matrix Reloaded, technological advancement is evident, newer car models are displayed.
• In The Animatrix, one of the more cannonical episodes beside The Final Flight of the Osiris or The Second Renaissance I & II, Beyond displays the year 1999.
• In The Matrix Online, a ticket stub is posted in an official Live Events report, with the year "2006" printed on it. I don't care what retcon excuse is used to wipe away that blemish on the record that it isn't perpetually 1999. It seems like that was retconned mostly because of player reaction, in which I aswell, foolishly had been brainwashed into believing, back then, that it was perpetually 1999. That was a concept brought up by marketing.

Point one is just a time stamp which has been explained to be pushed back a years as needed. Time wise its been about three years sense that happen so now it would read 1995 if that file was ever viewed. The point if anything the W bro are trying to get across isn't to show that time moves but that what happened to trinity was in the past and just how long they had been watching Neo.

Point two to an assumptions. We don't see technology in the matrix evolve at all in fact we hardly see it let alone things to compare the first and second movies to. You can't compare car models in Reloaded to those in the first matrix because in the first matrix the only car we see is Morpheus 1969 Lincoln which he is still driving in the second and thirld film. Also if time and technology is allowed to progress we run into several problems. What happens when AI is created in the Matrix, are there any kind of restrictions, won't people notice them if any. This is all fixed by keeping the system as boring as possible making it all but impossible to notice that nothings moving which then makes changing the date an easy process. And they can't keep the date the same and allow everything to progress. Then it bcomes obvious that the dates not moving but the world is changing. And the reverse (freezing technology and let the date move on) is just as bad. Sure 2007 in a 1999 world might not be noticeable but 2199 STILL looking like 1999 is. S there is no middle ground. It either all moves or it all stays still. The later is what they went with.

Point three. Koji Morimoto does not write the Matrix. Koji Morimoto does not direct the Matrix. Koji Morimoto has no control over or say in whats possible in the MAtrix universe. He was only asked to share some of his ideas on it to the public via the Animatrix. Beyond, World Record, Detective Story, etc are not canon, just well done ideas and fan fiction that the W bros liked to the point that they wanted to share them with the actual story.

Point 4. Mistakes happen. Rarebit said that the ticket was a slip up even before Tick Tock's event. Also the idea apparently was not just marketing and if it was they convinced the W bros to go with it as well. Something like how time progresses screams needing to be OK-ed by them before being pushed out to the public.

(I've been away for a while, but I think I've read that Tick Tock event and also have followed many discussions on this; point me out if I overlook something important, and I'll shut my hole immediately " width="15" height="15"> )

[quote]
And they can't keep the date the same and allow everything to progress. [/quote]


Why do that in the first place? If preventing Machines to "run into themselves" inside the Matrix (Tick Tock said it somehow similarly) is what this is all about, and yet they allow the society within to progress, why bother with manipulating the year count at all? What's the point?

That's my point. They don't let society progress. They keep the time still and are able to hide away that nothing is happening. If time moved and nothing furthered people would realize something was up. Thus it has to be two options. Either time moves forward and they allow society to progress or they freeze everything as it was in 1999.

[quote]Then it bcomes obvious that the dates not moving but the world is changing. [/quote]

How can they see that the date's not moving if, in their memories, the previous years which at that time were 1999, are now 1999-n?

Kid gets born in 1999. Five years pass. It's still 1999, but the kid was born 1994. That's how it works, if I remember correctly.

Another thing - people will notice that the year's the same anyway. You think if you live your boring single life in a cubicle for five years, you're more likely to miss that after 20 goddamn years, it's still the same year, than if you spend these 20 years with brilliant artistic/scientific inventions and achievements? You'll snap either way, I believe.

I can't dig for that event right now, but did he say something about "important dates" being stuck in people's heads rather than uninteresting everyday events? Do I remember that correctly? If people can be brainwashed over the date of their child's birth or marriage, they can be brainwashed over anything, me thinks.

The illusion works by keeping everything as boring as possible. Blues wakes up, goes to work, gets home, goes to sleep rinse wash repeat. This accounts for the greatest portion of someones life inside the Matrix. But as you put it birthdays are a different, along with any other date of real significance. They have to get you to believe you to keep pushing your year back every birthday or anniversary of that event. They do this by keeping it all boring yet your sense of time is still in place. So you know its been a year sense then but you have nothing to really tell yourself that you were born in that year. You may end up with one day saying "I was born in 1999" but 364 days saying you were born 1998. Now whats going to win in that argument?

And that's even if you aware of it. Remember only 1% of the people in the Matrix question anything about it. 99% just run with whatever it tells them. So nerd so dependent as Morpheus puts it.

[quote]And the reverse (freezing technology and let the date move on) is just as bad. Sure 2007 in a 1999 world might not be noticeable but 2199 STILL looking like 1999 is. S there is no middle ground.[/quote]

In 100 years, although it will still be 1999, people will think of the present as 1899 and still wonder what the hell has changed with the world in an entire century.

No they wont. Remember its kept in a boring state. No one remembers a day that nothing happened. Imagine 365 of those. When there's nothing to remember that's when the rest of the system takes over and erasing those days is as simple as the implanting of memories. People then just conform to whatever society says happens and some even convince themselves they were there when it happened. its simply using the idea that if your told something enough times you start to believe it and those inside the Matrix have a lot of room to be told whatever they need to hear.

zeroone506 wrote:

(I've been away for a while, but I think I've read that Tick Tock event and also have followed many discussions on this; point me out if I overlook something important, and I'll shut my hole immediately " width="15" height="15"> )

[quote]
And they can't keep the date the same and allow everything to progress. [/quote]


Why do that in the first place? If preventing Machines to "run into themselves" inside the Matrix (Tick Tock said it somehow similarly) is what this is all about, and yet they allow the society within to progress, why bother with manipulating the year count at all? What's the point?

That's my point. They don't let society progress. They keep the time still and are able to hide away that nothing is happening. If time moved and nothing furthered people would realize something was up. Thus it has to be two options. Either time moves forward and they allow society to progress or they freeze everything as it was in 1999.

And my point it is that such an option is inherently pointless to begin with

Seriously - why keep the year and still let the society progress? It doesn't even make sense, so to hell if it's plausible or not



[quote]Then it bcomes obvious that the dates not moving but the world is changing. [/quote]

How can they see that the date's not moving if, in their memories, the previous years which at that time were 1999, are now 1999-n?

Kid gets born in 1999. Five years pass. It's still 1999, but the kid was born 1994. That's how it works, if I remember correctly.

Another thing - people will notice that the year's the same anyway. You think if you live your boring single life in a cubicle for five years, you're more likely to miss that after 20 goddamn years, it's still the same year, than if you spend these 20 years with brilliant artistic/scientific inventions and achievements? You'll snap either way, I believe.

I can't dig for that event right now, but did he say something about "important dates" being stuck in people's heads rather than uninteresting everyday events? Do I remember that correctly? If people can be brainwashed over the date of their child's birth or marriage, they can be brainwashed over anything, me thinks.

The illusion works by keeping everything as boring as possible. Blues wakes up, goes to work, gets home, goes to sleep rinse wash repeat. This accounts for the greatest portion of someones life inside the Matrix.

Have I missed some recent revelation on the bluepill's everyday life? From missions and events with bluepill encounters, it seemed they were quite normal people as we know from our world, with friends/family, feelings etc., rather than delirious, boring sleepwalkers.  


But as you put it birthdays are a different, along with any other date of real significance. They have to get you to believe you to keep pushing your year back every birthday or anniversary of that event. They do this by keeping it all boring yet your sense of time is still in place. So you know its been a year sense then but you have nothing to really tell yourself that you were born in that year. You may end up with one day saying "I was born in 1999" but 364 days saying you were born 1998. Now whats going to win in that argument?

The ID card in your pants pocket saying "born in 1971" is going to win the argument.

And that's even if you aware of it. Remember only 1% of the people in the Matrix question anything about it. 99% just run with whatever it tells them. So nerd so dependent as Morpheus puts it.

I always thought we were talking about this subconscious "splinter in the mind" type of thing, or maybe a much more active doubt of anything that seems wrong or unexplainable to them ("where do those tubes lead?",  like in The Island), but definitely not "I'm 48 years old but my ID says I was born in 1999... bah, to hell with that, I'm off too work, like every other day.... man I hate life."

People in the Matrix constanly question what's up with the gangs, the bosses in their company (that conspiracy story from the Unlimits) or who's their wife sleeping with, so maybe they'll question something as the date of their own birth or when they married, got laid or were employed at their current job, finished education etc.?


[quote]And the reverse (freezing technology and let the date move on) is just as bad. Sure 2007 in a 1999 world might not be noticeable but 2199 STILL looking like 1999 is. S there is no middle ground.[/quote]

In 100 years, although it will still be 1999, people will think of the present as 1899 and still wonder what the hell has changed with the world in an entire century.

No they wont. Remember its kept in a boring state. No one remembers a day that nothing happened. Imagine 365 of those. When there's nothing to remember that's when the rest of the system takes over and erasing those days is as simple as the implanting of memories. People then just conform to whatever society says happens and some even convince themselves they were there when it happened. its simply using the idea that if your told something enough times you start to believe it and those inside the Matrix have a lot of room to be told whatever they need to hear.

I start feeling slightly uncomfortable. Maybe I shouldn't participate in this debate having read that event months and months ago?

I clearly remember Tick Tock telling that once the new year started, all the dates got shifted backwards by one. Yea, that n00b redpill didn't get it, and he explained it.

I think you slightly contradict yourself there. If all bluepills are boring, delirious excuses for human shells sleepwalking through eventless lives and identical day, as you seem to portray it, and will accept any **bullcrud** handed to them, like that they were born a year ago, why should they question the fact that it's 2199 and nothing has changed?

"Let's see, so technological progress in 100 years, everything's boring and the same... yea, right, I'm off to work then". 

Have I got some facts wrong?

GamiSB wrote:

zeroone506 wrote:

(I've been away for a while, but I think I've read that Tick Tock event and also have followed many discussions on this; point me out if I overlook something important, and I'll shut my hole immediately " width="15" height="15"> )

[quote]
And they can't keep the date the same and allow everything to progress. [/quote]


Why do that in the first place? If preventing Machines to "run into themselves" inside the Matrix (Tick Tock said it somehow similarly) is what this is all about, and yet they allow the society within to progress, why bother with manipulating the year count at all? What's the point?

That's my point. They don't let society progress. They keep the time still and are able to hide away that nothing is happening. If time moved and nothing furthered people would realize something was up. Thus it has to be two options. Either time moves forward and they allow society to progress or they freeze everything as it was in 1999.

And my point it is that such an option is inherently pointless to begin with " width="15" height="15" />

Seriously - why keep the year and still let the society progress? It doesn't even make sense, so to hell if it's plausible or not " width="15" height="15" />

But your missing mine. They don't keep the year and let society progress. They keep the year and don't let it get past 1999.


[quote]Then it bcomes obvious that the dates not moving but the world is changing. [/quote]

How can they see that the date's not moving if, in their memories, the previous years which at that time were 1999, are now 1999-n?

Kid gets born in 1999. Five years pass. It's still 1999, but the kid was born 1994. That's how it works, if I remember correctly.

Another thing - people will notice that the year's the same anyway. You think if you live your boring single life in a cubicle for five years, you're more likely to miss that after 20 goddamn years, it's still the same year, than if you spend these 20 years with brilliant artistic/scientific inventions and achievements? You'll snap either way, I believe.

I can't dig for that event right now, but did he say something about "important dates" being stuck in people's heads rather than uninteresting everyday events? Do I remember that correctly? If people can be brainwashed over the date of their child's birth or marriage, they can be brainwashed over anything, me thinks.

The illusion works by keeping everything as boring as possible. Blues wakes up, goes to work, gets home, goes to sleep rinse wash repeat. This accounts for the greatest portion of someones life inside the Matrix.

Have I missed some recent revelation on the bluepill's everyday life? From missions and events with bluepill encounters, it seemed they were quite normal people as we know from our world, with friends/family, feelings etc., rather than delirious, boring sleepwalkers.  

I'm not saying that they are sleepwalkers only that the Matrix is set to make them almost such. Nothing happens. There are no world events, no major conflicts such as war, no catastrophe. Basically anything that could leave a lasting impression of time other then our sense of time and the calendar the Machines have going. But this is talking about the present. Such events do happen in the past or at least they think they do. The history books still say that man landed on the moon in 1969 even though that generation lived in the same Matrix the current one did. The only thing that changes is that they have no memory of there Matrix and are now just told ti happened.

But as you put it birthdays are a different, along with any other date of real significance. They have to get you to believe you to keep pushing your year back every birthday or anniversary of that event. They do this by keeping it all boring yet your sense of time is still in place. So you know its been a year sense then but you have nothing to really tell yourself that you were born in that year. You may end up with one day saying "I was born in 1999" but 364 days saying you were born 1998. Now whats going to win in that argument?

The ID card in your pants pocket saying "born in 1971" is going to win the argument.

Which as soon as December 31st comes and goes changes over to "1970"

And that's even if you aware of it. Remember only 1% of the people in the Matrix question anything about it. 99% just run with whatever it tells them. So nerd so dependent as Morpheus puts it.

I always thought we were talking about this subconscious "splinter in the mind" type of thing, or maybe a much more active doubt of anything that seems wrong or unexplainable to them ("where do those tubes lead?",  like in The Island), but definitely not "I'm 48 years old but my ID says I was born in 1999... bah, to hell with that, I'm off too work, like every other day.... man I hate life."

People in the Matrix constanly question what's up with the gangs, the bosses in their company (that conspiracy story from the Unlimits) or who's their wife sleeping with, so maybe they'll question something as the date of their own birth or when they married, got laid or were employed at their current job, finished education etc.?

The ID's changes. The records change. That's what Tick Tock explained. No one is walking around with ID's that say "Born 1999" They are walking around with IDs that change every year to make them a year older. The time shift is easy for us to pick out and notice something's wrong but from a blues perspective its not. You have to remember that they are coming from a world that nothing of major is happening in. Gangs aren't uncommon and to those that live in big cities they aren't anything to make you freak out about. In fact you get used tot hem. They become a normacy. Gang violence in the Mega City is just as common to its inhabitants as it is to those in Chicago or NYC. Everything else you described is just apart of the average humans life. Nothing that would stick out in your memory. You don't think Oh, on March 17th 1996 I was wondering about that gang member i saw in the park, or July 21st 1998 i suspected my wife of cheating. Sure you remember tha happening but not the date. and certainly not the year. At most you remember that being a certain time ago but nothing specific.

[quote]And the reverse (freezing technology and let the date move on) is just as bad. Sure 2007 in a 1999 world might not be noticeable but 2199 STILL looking like 1999 is. S there is no middle ground.[/quote]

In 100 years, although it will still be 1999, people will think of the present as 1899 and still wonder what the hell has changed with the world in an entire century.

No they wont. Remember its kept in a boring state. No one remembers a day that nothing happened. Imagine 365 of those. When there's nothing to remember that's when the rest of the system takes over and erasing those days is as simple as the implanting of memories. People then just conform to whatever society says happens and some even convince themselves they were there when it happened. its simply using the idea that if your told something enough times you start to believe it and those inside the Matrix have a lot of room to be told whatever they need to hear.

I start feeling slightly uncomfortable. Maybe I shouldn't participate in this debate having read that event months and months ago?

I clearly remember Tick Tock telling that once the new year started, all the dates got shifted backwards by one. Yea, that n00b redpill didn't get it, and he explained it.

I think you slightly contradict yourself there. If all bluepills are boring, delirious excuses for human shells sleepwalking through eventless lives and identical day, as you seem to portray it, and will accept any poppycock handed to them, like that they were born a year ago, why should they question the fact that it's 2199 and nothing has changed?

"Let's see, so technological progress in 100 years, everything's boring and the same... yea, right, I'm off to work then". 

Have I got some facts wrong?

Perhaps boring was to strong of a word. Average, normal, simplictic could be better. Its simply that life is nothing extraordinary for them and all that happens is the norm, which is nothing really to remember. Its not that there lives are uneventful and they are only sleepwalking through life only that there lives are kept to being nothing memorable in the present. Also its not as if they can't think or notice things. They can. Even the most bored of men can still think and notice they only leave there mind open to false memories. 

zeroone506 wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

zeroone506 wrote:

But your missing mine. They don't keep the year and let society progress. They keep the year and don't let it get past 1999.

You examined the ALTERNATIVE SCENARIOS and I felt that this particular one had another flaw aside from the one you pointed out. Anyways...



[quote]Then it bcomes obvious that the dates not moving but the world is changing. [/quote]

How can they see that the date's not moving if, in their memories, the previous years which at that time were 1999, are now 1999-n?

Kid gets born in 1999. Five years pass. It's still 1999, but the kid was born 1994. That's how it works, if I remember correctly.

Another thing - people will notice that the year's the same anyway. You think if you live your boring single life in a cubicle for five years, you're more likely to miss that after 20 goddamn years, it's still the same year, than if you spend these 20 years with brilliant artistic/scientific inventions and achievements? You'll snap either way, I believe.

I can't dig for that event right now, but did he say something about "important dates" being stuck in people's heads rather than uninteresting everyday events? Do I remember that correctly? If people can be brainwashed over the date of their child's birth or marriage, they can be brainwashed over anything, me thinks.

I'm not saying that they are sleepwalkers only that the Matrix is set to make them almost such. Nothing happens. There are no world events, no major conflicts such as war, no catastrophe. Basically anything that could leave a lasting impression of time other then our sense of time and the calendar the Machines have going. But this is talking about the present. Such events do happen in the past or at least they think they do. The history books still say that man landed on the moon in 1969 even though that generation lived in the same Matrix the current one did. The only thing that changes is that they have no memory of there Matrix and are now just told ti happened.

I don't get it. Telling people that there was a big event with someone landing on the moon, and broadcasting it live on TV, ONLY 30 YEARS AGO, even though that never really happened in the Matrix, would be a great reason for those people to snap and drown in their pods, me thinks.

Except maybe, fabricated memories. But maybe they fabricated the broadcast aswell. °_°

Which as soon as December 31st comes and goes changes over to "1970"

"Kid gets born in 1999. Five years pass. It's still 1999, but the kid was born 1994. That's how it works, if I remember correctly."

I know that

"So you know its been a year sense then but you have nothing to really tell yourself that you were born in that year."

Why are you saying that there's nothing to tell yourself that something happened in that year if you agree it stands in your ID? Somehow, I'm confused by all of this.

Then it bcomes obvious that the dates not moving but the world is changing.

Somehow you're contradicting yourself. If you agree that the dates in the world and memories are being shifted - then how can anyone notice that date's not moving? At any given moment, to them, the past took place in different years.

The ID's changes. The records change. That's what Tick Tock explained. No one is walking around with ID's that say "Born 1999" They are walking around with IDs that change every year to make them a year older. The time shift is easy for us to pick out and notice something's wrong but from a blues perspective its not. You have to remember that they are coming from a world that nothing of major is happening in.

Isn't it rather because their memory gets messed with and "ours" doesn't? I don't get what difference it makes if something major happens. If they Machines can shift around years in your head, they can. Even if there were events (maybe there are?), the Machines would just shift the dates.

Why do that in the first place is the question.

I don't know, are you making the point that bluepills simply "take" the fact that the date isn't moving and all the past is being "shifted", because the history is poor of events? No matter how dull your life and the world is, NO ONE can miss something like that.
The Machines go into your memory and overwrite the dates. No matter how significant the "events" in your life are.


I don't get why. They want to prevent the invention of the AI? Then prevent it. Observe and sabotage their scientific progress or whatever, brainwash them into not thinking about this possibility.
Why this procedure with the date shifts? What's the purpose? Either way, for a bluepill, time pasts and nothing happens. Whether it's 1999 or 2199, they'll look at the past and say "wow, nothing really happened".

What's the point?



Gangs aren't uncommon and to those that live in big cities they aren't anything to make you freak out about. In fact you get used tot hem. They become a normacy. Gang violence in the Mega City is just as common to its inhabitants as it is to those in Chicago or NYC. Everything else you described is just apart of the average humans life. Nothing that would stick out in your memory. You don't think Oh, on March 17th 1996 I was wondering about that gang member i saw in the park, or July 21st 1998 i suspected my wife of cheating. Sure you remember tha happening but not the date. and certainly not the year. At most you remember that being a certain time ago but nothing specific.

I just meant that people can question stuff around them, as opposed to buying any **bullcrud** fed by the Machines.

zeroone506 wrote:

I don't get it. Telling people that there was a big event with someone landing on the moon, and broadcasting it live on TV, ONLY 30 YEARS AGO, even though that never really happened in the Matrix, would be a great reason for those people to snap and drown in their pods, me thinks.

Except maybe, fabricated memories. But maybe they fabricated the broadcast aswell. °_°

You have to look at it in their view not yours. There view of time is quiet different then our own so its harder to grasp. They never broadcasted anything to them. The only things that the media in the city reports on are things that happen in 1999 and nothing outstanding. Everything else is just slowly eased in and made to be absorbed by those inside. The events never happened they are only told they did via there fabricated memory and anything needed within the Matrix to push the lie.

Why are you saying that there's nothing to tell yourself that something happened in that year if you agree it stands in your ID? Somehow, I'm confused by all of this.

It doesn't stand in the ID. It changes every year and gets pushed back. But also people don't check there ID's for there age or year of birth unless their just very forgetful. It' something that is known via a sense of time and repetition when asked how old. ID's, files, reports of any kind are only there to help push the lie along and keep people from noticing the lack of movement in time.

To take this further can you confirm for me that you were born the year you believe you were? Are you really that age? No one remembers there birth and all we really have to confirm that it is what we are told it is are records and memories. In the Matrix both of those are easily manipulated.


Somehow you're contradicting yourself. If you agree that the dates in the world and memories are being shifted - then how can anyone notice that date's not moving? At any given moment, to them, the past took place in different years.

They can't. What I'm saying is that if either the date moved or society was allowed to progress then it would be a noticeable change.

The ID's changes. The records change. That's what Tick Tock explained. No one is walking around with ID's that say "Born 1999" They are walking around with IDs that change every year to make them a year older. The time shift is easy for us to pick out and notice something's wrong but from a blues perspective its not. You have to remember that they are coming from a world that nothing of major is happening in.

Isn't it rather because their memory gets messed with and "ours" doesn't? I don't get what difference it makes if something major happens. If they Machines can shift around years in your head, they can. Even if there were events (maybe there are?), the Machines would just shift the dates.

Why do that in the first place is the question.

Major events of any kind leave lasting impressions. Take 9/11 for example. Those that saw it happen or were effected by it have a lasting impression that on September 11th 2001 there worlds changed forever. Major events are harder to take charge of and manipulate. The older you get the harder it is for the Machines to even work the birthday thing according to Tick Tock now imagine something happening at say the age 25 when your much more aware of what is and has happened.

Also I need to clear up that misconception. The Machines aren't shifting around years in your head. Only shifting around records and leaving it all but impossible to properly recall events.

I don't know, are you making the point that bluepills simply "take" the fact that the date isn't moving and all the past is being "shifted", because the history is poor of events? No matter how dull your life and the world is, NO ONE can miss something like that.
The Machines go into your memory and overwrite the dates. No matter how significant the "events" in your life are.

Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the lack of anything happening in the present to them is done to keep them unaware of the lack of change. Once year once is complete and the current 1999 becomes 1998 that year can have any range of events the machine wants that person to recall. its all about keeping the mind in a state that is easily manipulable so as to add false memories of past events. Again they don't got in and change all the years inside your head simply leave you open to take whatever year they want you to believe something happened on.


I don't get why. They want to prevent the invention of the AI? Then prevent it. Observe and sabotage their scientific progress or whatever, brainwash them into not thinking about this possibility.
Why this procedure with the date shifts? What's the purpose? Either way, for a bluepill, time pasts and nothing happens. Whether it's 1999 or 2199, they'll look at the past and say "wow, nothing really happened".

What's the point?

The point is to keep humanity in their control and unaware that they are. The Matrix isn't about a direct control but one done from the background. So they can't just come out into the open and keep one area from advancing. Its to noticeable. You think keeping it 1999 is hard to hide think about how it looks that the area of A.I. isn't advancing any yet we all have flying cars and no longer need to breath air to live?

And again its not that they look back and say "wow nothing happened" its that by the time nothings happen the Machine already has all its outlets telling them something did happen by filling in the gaps that year left it.

I just meant that people can question stuff around them, as opposed to buying any poppycock fed by the Machines.

1% will. 99% won't.

They don't notice it, because they don't want to.

Consider what we've been taught about bluepills. Especially what Morpheus taught Neo in The Matrix. Some of them are so hopelessly dependent on the system, they'll even fight for it. This, one would assume, includes their own instincts. They avoid that which they won't understand, they ignore what they can't comprehend, and they deny when they can't do either.

That's how the Machines can make time stand still. For a bluepill to question it would be tantamount to being part of the .1% that won't accept the Matrix no matter how hard the Machines try.

Do they really live in such a brainless trance that they can't notice their own birthday shifting every year? Year counts is something people keep in mind and rely on in every day life. For someone in RL not to know what year it is, is unimaginable.

We've got to know the bluepills mostly as "normal", accountable people, hard to imagine that that they're actually such brainless sleepwalkers (of course, I'm not saying THEY AREN'T, because this is a fictional universe at the end of the day).
Take Mr. Rhineheart - a serious, responsible boss watching over the biggest software company in... the bubble of existence that is the Matrix / Mega City. Whatever. Who thinks he doesn't give a **** if all the important records and balances feel like changing their dates?

And again - if they won't question this, how come the Machines are concerned that they'll question some stupid lack of AI inventions? If that's the sole reason they're going trough all the effort... or have I forgot something Tick Tock said? Well, then, so much about Machine efficiency, eh?



I've always thought the 1% felt something was wrong with the world and questioned things other people wouldn't question. But this? I REALLY DON'T KNOW. Think again, 1999. People await the next century, maybe they've even bought firework (if they use to do that in the Matrix, doesn't really matter), but it never comes.


 I suppose if the "canon" says bluepills don't notice such an absurdity that would make everyone snap and think he's in a bad dream, and that it's absolutely necessary for the Machines to go through all this in order to prevent the AI from being invented and people from questioning why it hasn't, then it's "true". Right now, it simply appears as a bunch of nonsense to me (both what I think to know about this story, and your arguments).

To one of the earlier posts that don't look at 1999.

I think it goes without saying that the fight scene in the chateau is there for a large wicked cool action scene.  As to why Neo didn't send the bullets back to the exiles firing at him...I think Neo was giving everyone in the room an example of his power and a choice:  Follow orders and stay or disobey and leave with your lives.

Fractor wrote:

This is more about one scene than a whole topic/theme but I thought this would be a good place to post it as I don't think it should have it's own thread.

In Reloaded where Neo fought the exiles in the Chateau why didn't he simply send the bullets he stopped back to the exiles therefore taking them all out at once? I suppose the simple explanation is it's a movie and a fight scene is more fun but there's also the question of surely someone would have tripped from all those bullets on the floor?

I suppose this could be part of a theme of things that are explained by the fact that it's a movie.

There's also the fact that the exiles wouldn't have died from those bullets.They could dodge them too and besides, if lupines or sort, it wouldn't have affected them so he had to kick their rears (play PoN). And yes, it was an action movie. I think anyone would agree that they'd rather see him using swords/melee to kick their "ends" than just make them fall in one shot as they would in a parody.

Garu wrote:

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Hmm. I don't know if I can agree with the innocent idea. Machines don't do anything without purpose, after a few hundred years (at least) it's hard to imagine a couple of Machines saying "ah, screw it, let's just go have a beer and make a baby." Sati may have been loved by her parents, but there was something else driving Kamala to write that particular program.

Also, the Oracle just 'coming to know about Sati' doesn't make much sense, and what doesn't make sense even more than that is that the Oracle just decides to risk everything and sacrifice herself to save this kid? That would be fine if Sati were as important or even more important than Neo, but for all intents and purposes (via the story so far), she isn't.

I like your perception of Sati's future importance, it's sort of sublime in its simplicity.

And I didn't mean the Oracle's deletion. As you pointed out, why would they delete something that is serving its purpose? I meant Sati. Just the fact that the Agents were carrying out Program Deletions meant that if a program were marked for deletion, it would be doggedly pursued by an Agent until terminated, right? So, why isn't Sati dead yet?

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree.  "Purposeless" doesn't really make much sense in regards to the actions of machine program.  I'm merely thinking that Sati's creation may not necessarily have been as a result of the Oracle's meddling, however it does lend more credit to how the Oracle came to know about it.  I guess after thinking more on it, I'm going to go with your presumption.

Thanks for clearing up the deletion matter.  I did misread that.  It could be she hasn't been deleted because she is under the care of the Oracle or it could also be that her creation was planned from the beginning.  There's certainly more than meets the eye with her.

I've always thought there was more to her than the typical perception of "some little girl who controls weather".  The mere fact that she, an exile, manipulated the Matrix out of sheer desire to honor Neo is astounding in itself.  I'm hoping we see more as the story continues.

WooHoo! topic mishmash! I'm going to go back to this one...

I'm really inclined to disagree with Shi. It seems almost abundantly clear from the movies that Sati was in fact created without a purpose to the machines as a group. Remember that not all Machines fall into the mindless drone category. Its pretty clear to me that Rama and kamala are borderline Exile types. They have enough independent sentience, and enough complexity to make decisions on their own. I would honestly take it a face value that they created Sati as an act of love. They might even be unique among programs for having attempted this, and hence part of Sati's uniqueness. as such, she may have had a purpose to them, but not to the Machines as a whole.

And yeah, as far as the Oracle "coming to know of Sati", Im pretty sure Rama says that they intentionally went to consult her about their dilemna, and furthermore, that evryone know the Oracle, or at least knows of her.

Lastly, it also seems pretty darn clear that the Oracle gave Rama her termination code for her shell deliberately. I felt that was strongly implied. I also seem to remember the Oracle saying that it cost her more than she bargained on. As such, I'm pretty sure this code was not a "kill-code". It merely was supposed to affect her "shell". However, it seems as though it also affected parts of her memory and personality, so that was the part the Oracle didnt expect.

And as far as Sati's importance, I think thast something that is being kepot in reserve for the stories future. Theres no way she would have stated that in the movies, without it having some significance. And as far as why the machines haven't deleted her, well, I'm guessing that Seraph may have a little to do with that.

Finally, my own WILD theory about Sati is the following... The first three movies have Neo exploring his ability to shape the Matrix. As things progress, he becomes more and more capable to extend his power into to control of machines OUTSIDE the Matrix. In his showdown with Bain/Smith, he briefly moves at Matrix speed in the Real world. So I really think that the Brothers were trying to hint at a much more broadly metaphysical view of reality. So... Sati will, I believe, be like a reverse Neo. She will end up developing the ability to affect things in the REAL!

As i say, wild and out there, but thats what id like to believe.