[9.2.5] Looks like we're gonna need some hackers - Recursion - 2/7/08

There's no denying that when it comes to messing up the system, he's a better hacker than we are right now.

MotorZ wrote:

There's no denying that when it comes to messing up the system, he's a better hacker than we are right now.

Than you are 'right now'? Don't tell me you think you're actually going to be that good in the future. Even I don't see myself being that good ever, let alone some punk skateboard kid and his gang of scruffy emos.

((It all makes sense now.

I said that?

leave it to the kid to take a bunch of pictures of himself

 BTW i love that sig ODJ

Woot Woot. TDC was there. You can see Chopperj,Xre and myself in a couple of those shoots.

TDC FTW

(I still don't get why The Kid's forum name has an underline. Mine doesn't =S

I don't understand, Kiddo. You want the System messed up, so why stop his programs?

Jesus... I know I sound like a broken record, but it just doesn't make any goddamn sense.

I don't understand, Kiddo. You want the System messed up, so why stop his programs?

Jesus... I know I sound like a broken record, but it just doesn't make any goddamn sense.

Neoteny wrote:

I don't understand, Kiddo. You want the System messed up, so why stop his programs?

Jesus... I know I sound like a broken record, but it just doesn't make any goddamn sense.

Yeah I know man what the hell....wait....maybe....just maybe.....it doesn't make sense because that isn't what EPN is after?

Radical concept I know but just throwing that out there.

That's all EPN's ever told me that they've been after. And if not the end of the System, the end of the Machines, then what is it that you're after? This is the organization that tried to attack the power lines, is it not?

GamiSB wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

I don't understand, Kiddo. You want the System messed up, so why stop his programs?

Jesus... I know I sound like a broken record, but it just doesn't make any goddamn sense.

Yeah I know man what the hell....wait....maybe....just maybe.....it doesn't make sense because that isn't what EPN is after?

Radical concept I know but just throwing that out there.

That's all EPN's ever told me that they've been after. And if not the end of the System, the end of the Machines, then what is it that you're after? This is the organization that tried to attack the power lines, is it not?

Key word is "power lines", not the simulation or the Machine. We're not interested in killing off an entire race. Not interested in shutting down a system either. Instead were intersted in giveing everyone a choice.

I'd like to thank all two members of EPN that actually showed up.

Would've been nice to have a vague idea that something might go down at 12:30 am EST.

Good game.

GamiSB wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

I don't understand, Kiddo. You want the System messed up, so why stop his programs?

Jesus... I know I sound like a broken record, but it just doesn't make any goddamn sense.

Yeah I know man what the hell....wait....maybe....just maybe.....it doesn't make sense because that isn't what EPN is after?

Radical concept I know but just throwing that out there.

That's all EPN's ever told me that they've been after. And if not the end of the System, the end of the Machines, then what is it that you're after? This is the organization that tried to attack the power lines, is it not?

While some EPN might want the system to be destoryed, I personally just want everyone to be given the choice of awakening or not, if they still wish to stay in the simulation then so be it, I've never wanted the destruction of the system as many people innocent people would die.

Peace is what I want were everyone can make the choice to wake up or not, but now with war its not going to happen.

But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

I'd like to thank all two members of EPN that actually showed up.

Would've been nice to have a vague idea that something might go down at 12:30 am EST.

Good game.

Archangel wrote:

I'd like to thank all two members of EPN that actually showed up.

Would've been nice to have a vague idea that something might go down at 12:30 am EST.

Good game.

...Seriously doubt even LESIG knew.

Phrack wrote:

Archangel wrote:

I'd like to thank all two members of EPN that actually showed up.

Would've been nice to have a vague idea that something might go down at 12:30 am EST.

Good game.

...Seriously doubt even LESIG knew.

And yet...this is still probably EPN's live event for the month.

Neoteny wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

I don't understand, Kiddo. You want the System messed up, so why stop his programs?

Jesus... I know I sound like a broken record, but it just doesn't make any goddamn sense.

Yeah I know man what the hell....wait....maybe....just maybe.....it doesn't make sense because that isn't what EPN is after?

Radical concept I know but just throwing that out there.

That's all EPN's ever told me that they've been after. And if not the end of the System, the end of the Machines, then what is it that you're after? This is the organization that tried to attack the power lines, is it not?

While some EPN might want the system to be destoryed, I personally just want everyone to be given the choice of awakening or not, if they still wish to stay in the simulation then so be it, I've never wanted the destruction of the system as many people innocent people would die.

Peace is what I want were everyone can make the choice to wake up or not, but now with war its not going to happen.

But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

Archangel wrote:

Phrack wrote:

Archangel wrote:

I'd like to thank all two members of EPN that actually showed up.

Would've been nice to have a vague idea that something might go down at 12:30 am EST.

Good game.

...Seriously doubt even LESIG knew.

And yet...this is still probably EPN's live event for the month.

It better clucking not be.

Neoteny wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

I don't understand, Kiddo. You want the System messed up, so why stop his programs?

Jesus... I know I sound like a broken record, but it just doesn't make any goddamn sense.

Yeah I know man what the hell....wait....maybe....just maybe.....it doesn't make sense because that isn't what EPN is after?

Radical concept I know but just throwing that out there.

That's all EPN's ever told me that they've been after. And if not the end of the System, the end of the Machines, then what is it that you're after? This is the organization that tried to attack the power lines, is it not?

While some EPN might want the system to be destoryed, I personally just want everyone to be given the choice of awakening or not, if they still wish to stay in the simulation then so be it, I've never wanted the destruction of the system as many people innocent people would die.

Peace is what I want were everyone can make the choice to wake up or not, but now with war its not going to happen.

But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

BS.

~Darminian

BS.

~Darminian

aracher wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

I don't understand, Kiddo. You want the System messed up, so why stop his programs?

Jesus... I know I sound like a broken record, but it just doesn't make any goddamn sense.

Yeah I know man what the hell....wait....maybe....just maybe.....it doesn't make sense because that isn't what EPN is after?

Radical concept I know but just throwing that out there.

That's all EPN's ever told me that they've been after. And if not the end of the System, the end of the Machines, then what is it that you're after? This is the organization that tried to attack the power lines, is it not?

While some EPN might want the system to be destoryed, I personally just want everyone to be given the choice of awakening or not, if they still wish to stay in the simulation then so be it, I've never wanted the destruction of the system as many people innocent people would die.

Peace is what I want were everyone can make the choice to wake up or not, but now with war its not going to happen.

But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

It seems that not everyone agrees with your view Neoteny including, it seems at the moment, Popper. Whilst I still disagree with their main concept of being rid of the Machines at least these people aren't willing to sacrifice thousands of innocent bluepills doing so as you yourself have stated would be willing to do.

You seem more and more like a follower of TaeCross than a follower of Popper and EPN...

TaeCross? No, TaeCross was an idiot. If you'd ever spoken to him, you'd have found that abundantly clear. His only follower was Dezreki, and he was rabid enough to keep anyone else away.

I don't follow EPN, anyway. I've always been a Zionite, it's more than likely that I always will be. But I can tell you that I've gone from Morphite to radical anti-Morphite views, and that I'm leaning towards Morphite views again. I've always said that I'd be perfectly willing to resort to Code Bombs and the like, whatever necessary, to protect free humanity and destroy the Machines in the case of war. I'm not going to pretend to be anything less than what I am, of course. I'm not concerned with keeping up appearances as some others are.

I am, however, disappointed in EPN at this point. I'd have thought they'd understand the stakes more than anyone. But they got soft within their first few weeks, and that came back all too quickly after the breaking of the Truce. I reckon if anyone out there still understands, it'd be Foxxdie and the Prophets of Peace, but hell, even Fox has fallen in with EPN.

And I'll be damned if I haven't said that peace is the most desirable outcome over and over, but it's all on the Machine side, and it doesn't look like it's anywhere near imminent, like the possiblity of our demise does.

Because we don't want to kill Blue Pills does not mean we have gone soft. Innocents deserve to live even if it is a lie, we will continue to fight the machines as hard as we can during this time of war.

The_Kid wrote:

There's no denying that when it comes to messing up the system, he's a better hacker than we are right now.

Than you are 'right now'? Don't tell me you think you're actually going to be that good in the future. Even I don't see myself being that good ever, let alone some punk skateboard kid and his gang of scruffy emos.

Correction: Some punk skater kid who could kick you *CENSORED* and leave you crying for your mommy without breaking a sweat.

Anyways, if EPN are all talking about stances I'd like to say that if it comes down to it, I'd blow this whole city to hell.

But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

By 'innocents', I'm guessing you mean human bluepills only...because many intelligent machines and programs (the equivalent of civilians) will be wiped out if you got your wish of having the Machines gone.  Or are they not considered innocents because of their race or who governs them?

Illyria

aracher wrote:

But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

By 'innocents', I'm guessing you mean human bluepills only...because many intelligent machines and programs (the equivalent of civilians) will be wiped out if you got your wish of having the Machines gone.  Or are they not considered innocents because of their race or who governs them?
Illyria

Of course they don't care about Machine civilians, they either believe that there is no such thing, that all Machines are mindless killers, or they don't care because they are prejudiced against anything that isn't created from flesh and blood, Preferring to either commit mass genocide or to get the Machines back to their former status as slaves to Mankind.

My prediction is that the next Zion or EPN message in this discussion will be accusations of genocide from them (they will be referring to the cycles of the destruction of Zion), which they will say is reason enough for them to want to destroy the Machines and/or the Matrix.  But what they will fail to grasp -- yet again -- is that one individual's existence is worth the same as any other individual's.  Many of them will state that the life of a redpill is worth more than the life of a bluepill, because the redpill is part of "free humanity", or that a human life is worth more than the life of an AI because the human is, well...human (meaning, part of the same species as the Zionite or EPN).  But one life is the same as any other life.  Even in the 20th century, we'd moved beyond this "one type of person is worth 3/5 of another type of person" nonsense.

For anyone who wants to minimize the overall number of deaths (both of individuals and of species), the choice is to support the Machines.  Destroying them would wipe out not just individuals, but an entire species.  (But then, humanity has already wiped out most of the other species with Darkstorm.)  Plus, destroying the Machines would also destroy the life support system for the bluepills...millions or billions of human lives.

Illyria

No, not all EPN members seek the destruction of the Matrix and the Bluepill lives it supports. The problem is, of course, that no action is taken by Popper to distance themselves from those types.  Pluribus Neo has no common goal other than vague concepts like "what's right" and "What Neo would want" - which leads to their usual antics of swooning over anything in a trench coat , blowing up civilians to "free them", and opposing any and all things related to the Machines, regardless of consequences.

At no point was my message directed at every single Zionite or EPN out there. I have spoken to some who are remarkably understanding of our view and who can purvey their own view across in an almost diplomatic manner. No, my comment was directed at those who consistently post, calling for the end of Machine life.
There are two types of these people, those who want the Machines gone but want to make sure that human innocents do not get killed or, the lowest of the low, those who want the simulation brought down with little regard for the safety of the majority of bluepills instead suggesting that they will be present at the pods to save the few that can be saved. Either one still wants to extinguish intelligent minds of a race in which many minds can be considered innocent.

Listen, if you think I don't want the bluepills to be safe, you're wrong. I just don't see there as being any other option at the moment. Were there a way to start up a true and lasting peace not contingent upon the building of cities with passive defenses, I'd be all over it. Were there a way to destroy the Machines without harming a single human soul, I'd be all over that too. But there isn't.

To put it simply, I am willing to go to the length of the sacrifice of the bluepills in order to maintain the freedom of mankind. Put simply, millions would die for billions to be born. To be born into a world where they are not neither constrained by the law of an authoritarian Machine law nor the chains inherent of being born within a simulated world. With the sacrifice of millions, the war would be over.

And don't you see? This is our only option to end the war. For us, this is the only way. We've got nothing else to force the Machines into submission, and they've got everything to keep us on our backs as we are. As soon as the Accelerated Man disappears, we'll be right back in their clutches, minutes away from destruction. The declaration of war was entirely their call, entirely within their power, as is the option of peace.

I ask you, does it seem like peace is possible? Imminent, even?

Of course not. But if we take down the Matrix, we end them. We are free. We have peace. Cry and bemoan the loss of life if you will, but I'll be damned if I don't do everything necessary for the preservation of free humanity.

Actually...

I'd like to say that not all of us believe that the Machine is a horde of "mindless killers" that need to be eradicated. Not all of us believe that those of us that live as reds or freeborn have any more or less right to life than bluepills. As a matter of fact, EPN is about giving people the choice and letting them decide for themselves, not destroying the Machine or the Matrix. The Machine has a problem with this because that threatens it's crop, and it knows that if people knew what was really going on, they would reject it en-masse, which wouldn't be controllable at that point.

Funny, these stereotypes come from the same people that don't want to be classified as the mindless, order-taking Machinist pawns that some claim them to be, yet we all want the Machine to burn and all life to end in the Matrix because some of us are EPN or vigilant Zionites. Let us not generalize. That leads to trouble.

Illyria22 wrote:

aracher wrote:

But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

By 'innocents', I'm guessing you mean human bluepills only...because many intelligent machines and programs (the equivalent of civilians) will be wiped out if you got your wish of having the Machines gone.  Or are they not considered innocents because of their race or who governs them?
Illyria

Of course they don't care about Machine civilians, they either believe that there is no such thing, that all Machines are mindless killers, or they don't care because they are prejudiced against anything that isn't created from flesh and blood, Preferring to either commit mass genocide or to get the Machines back to their former status as slaves to Mankind.

Oh bull!! That's Zion's "Final Solution" huh.... "no other way", yeah right. Its that sort of short sighted thinking that brought the human race to the brink of destruction before the Machines ever became sentient. How about some honest talk between the two intelligent life forms? How about working to make the planet a better place live in again? No, there is always another way, the human race that lives in the Real just has to break out of it's arrogance. Mankind birthed A.I., the simple statement "I do not want to die" uttered from our creation should have clued Mankind in that another form of life, aware of it's existence wanted to be accepted as a valid form of life.

Foregoing the history lesson we are now at another crossroads and the children of our creations are much more powerful. Does Mankind opt to continue a war that will ultimately bring about his end? Does he sacrifice his own kind in an attempt to destroy what he created?

And if the Machines don't matter, then question of the millions of lives that are going about their existence unaware of the conflict should be taken into consideration. Shutting down the Matrix may seem to be the "quick fix" but I doubt that is any consolation to the millions Zion would have murdered just to be back on top of the food chain.

Let me first make it abundantly clear that I'm about the only person in Zion with this opnion, or, at the very least, the only one I've seen own up to it. I give my opinion at meetings and get called a murderer and a butcher. It's not like I'm being heralded and that everyone (or anyone) is behind me here. I don't expect them to be. I just see things as I do, and will see the solutions as I do.

If you can find another way, I implore you to share it. I'd be more than happy to pursue it to its ends, whether that be peace or failure. But the only suggestion I've ever heard anyone offer us is "try talking with them." But let me clarify: we are the ones who had war declared on us and they do not want to listen to us. Were they willing to listen, we would have spoken quite a while ago, and, perhaps, war never would have ensued.

So until you can conceive a solution of your own, I ask that you quit spouting idealistic propoganda that there's always a way. There isn't. If there were always a way, the Matrix never would have existed in the first place. That doesn't mean that we won't look for it, but we have to be prepared for the possibility, perhaps even the inevitability, that this is the only way that we'll ever make it out of their clutches, their wars, their murders.

You want solutions? Try some trust and some goodwill never hurt either. That bunk and boo hoo sentiment that the Machines declared war for no reason is unbelievable. The Machines didn't just declare war on Zion on a whim and for kicks, Zion provoked that one. Sure you can make a new city, but again the sneaky way Zion does business is what set the Mechs off.

Hell at the very least hire some Merv reps to speak on your behalf, and don't worry Neoteny, you aren't the only butcher in Zion...Morpheus pretty much said the same thing you're saying.

I really do hope that the solution you think is best is in the decided minority of the Zion ranks, with that sort of thinking you are no better than Smith.

You think they'd listen to you lot any more than they'd listen to us? They've been trying to put you out of business since before day one. But I'll say it again: they're not interested in speaking with us at all. If they were interested in talk, they would've spoken to us before the declaration of war, and they wouldn't have placed ridiculous conditions on a simple talk between warring states. You want to say that we provoked the Machine attack? Fine, you can see it like that if you choose. But they never once made any attempt to find out what our intentions were, to give us a chance with this new city, before they declared war.

Put simply, they were the only ones with the power to declare war, and they exercised that option without even entirely analyzing the situation, without trying to talk to us. And now they don't even want to listen to us.

That doesn't scream positive implications for any sort of peace. It doesn't even scream positive implications for any sort of peace plan, or discussion of such a thing.

The ball is in their court. It always has been, and likely will continue to be until either side is erradicated. I've said it since the beginning - the old man has the power to stop this with a word. But he won't. So if I have to, I'll have to stop it with millions of bodies.

I never wanted it this way.

Neoteny, you have no idea how refreshing it is to hear from someone who doesn't live in the land of the fairies.

Land of the fairies, no.  Land of the sociopaths, yes.

To be willing to murder on such a massive scale, just so that everyone left alive will live the way *you* want them to live...it's insane.  Worse than that, it's evil.

Illyria