Oracle's Philosophy

18 posts · 2008-02-02 10:34:02 to 2008-03-08 11:26:42

#36300398323 02/02/2008 10:34:02 Oracle's Philosophy

The Oracle: Candy?
Neo: D'you already know if I'm going to take it?
The Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't.
Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?
The Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it. I thought you'd have figured that out by now.
Neo: Why are you here?
The Oracle: Same reason. I love candy.

So I'm curious as to what school of Phiolosphy this originates from. Any ideas?


#36300398332 02/02/2008 11:13:53 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
I'm not sure exactly, but I will say that conversation is similar to a quote by Jean Baudrillard:

"It is always the same: once you are liberated, you are forced to ask who you are."

"...you've already made it(been liberated). You're here to try to understand why you made it(who you are and why you do what you do) ."

Also worth noting is how this concept seems to go really well with the Oracle being an equivalent in the Matrix to the Caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland ; the chain-smoking figure that constantly asks the main character "who are you?"

#36300398387 02/02/2008 13:04:27 Re:Oracle's Philosophy

Neo is questioning determinism (per his usual m.o.), and the Oracle is playfully ignoring his questions because they aren't relevant to his purpose.  Instead she constantly reiterates variations on the theme of 'know thyself', which of course has several philosophical origins.  That convo is roughly Plato arguing with Siddhartha.

Incidentally, while the films spend a lot of energy making overt Looking Glass references, the Oracle herself is a specific nod to both the Delphic Sibyl and the Delphic Oracle Pythia, right down to the riddle-speak, the orange/green color scheme of her kitchen and apron, the smoking, the "temet nosce" inscription, etc.

As a personal speculation, I've always found the red candy bit to be the Oracle's thinly veiled method of telling Neo to stop asking stupid questions and remember why he took the red pill.

#36300398478 02/02/2008 15:59:34 Re:Oracle's Philosophy


#36300398485 02/02/2008 16:17:32 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
Rarebit wrote:



uh huh......not following

#36300398490 02/02/2008 16:32:41 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
I think I see what Rarebit is getting at.

Neo is asking questions he can't handle the answers to, at this point. The Oracle is trying to keep his mind on the ride as opposed to the destination, so to speak. Once he realizes why he made the choice, he'll understand what he is and what his real purpose entails. It was the Oracle's design to take him further than he's meant to go from the beginning, and if he knows the facts he can't handle, they would limit him and he wouldn't push himself beyond the choice the Architect gives him.
#36300398491 02/02/2008 16:35:02 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
I get the meaning behind the whole ordeal just curious as to what the W bros used for their  insperation

#36300404102 02/11/2008 13:17:34 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
Rarebit wrote:


"We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams."

Uhm, yeah .... determinism.

#36300404154 02/11/2008 14:30:26 Oracle's Philosophy
GamiSB wrote:

The Oracle: Candy?
Neo: D'you already know if I'm going to take it?
The Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't.
Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?
The Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it. I thought you'd have figured that out by now.
Neo: Why are you here?
The Oracle: Same reason. I love candy.

So I'm curious as to what school of Phiolosphy this originates from. Any ideas?

Personally I dont think its so much Philosophy as psychology.

I think its more about understanding why we do something then the behavior itself.

#36300404164 02/11/2008 14:50:57 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
Rarebit wrote:



Hee, Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka: very fine choice!
#36300404167 02/11/2008 14:59:21 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
The answer is most likely John Calvin.
#36300410558 02/20/2008 10:18:32 Re:Oracle's Philosophy

I don't think it was just a matter of the Oracle loving candy like Mr. Wonka did. But I quite agree with the character being analogous to Alice in Wonderland's Caterpillar.

There is a lot of imagery like this surrounding the Oracle in the movies, such as the sign above the kitchen door (Temet Nosce). It was a nod to the ancient Greek's Oracle at Delphi (although, given how she is known to Redpills, I rather think that sign is something that she herself would have done instead of it just being a plot function).

The inspiration for her character came from, I believe, the story of Sophia, whom, in Gnosticism, is represented as "A Feminine figure, analogous to the human soul but also simultaneously one of the Feminine aspects of God and the Bride of Christ, she is considered to have fallen from grace in some way, in so doing creating or helping to create the material world."  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_%28wisdom%29)

Her character is echoed here, also from Wikipedia, "In most, if not all versions, of the gnostic religion, Sophia brings about an instability in the Pleroma, in turn bringing about the creation of materiality," and her story is parallel to the one in this passage, "Sophia's fear and anguish of losing her life (just as she lost the light of the One) caused confusion and longing to return to it. Because of these longings, matter (Greek: hyle, ‘υλη) and soul (Greek: psyche, ψυχή) accidentally came into existence through the four elements: fire, water, earth, and air. The creation of the lion-faced Demiurge (Smith) is also a mistake made during this exile, according to some Gnostic sources as a result of Sophia trying to emanate on her own, without her male counterpart (The Architect). The Demiurge proceeds to create the physical world in which we live, ignorant of Sophia, who nevertheless managed to infuse some spiritual spark or pneuma into the creation of the Demiurge."

Sadly, we still do not know whether we can trust this Oracle or not. With the immense power that she has of calculating all possibilities and then choosing the most probable one, she can manipulate anything into to behaving the way she wants it to. This was evident with Neo, as is illustrated by Brett Watson from the Nutter's Log:

"If The Oracle really did have such immense foreknowledge of Neo's actions under all possible circumstances, then did Neo himself really have any free will in doing what he did subsequently? It was her intention, obviously, that Neo discover his abilities as The One, and this he did. Was this a journey that he undertook himself, as master of his own fate? Or was he merely the puppet of The Oracle, doing her will, and treading a path that she had determined for him?"

For that matter, aren't we all?

The candy was a test, one that Neo passed; albeit blithely. "If you already know, how can I make a choice?"

#36300410560 02/20/2008 10:21:17 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
The Oracle was just another layer of the system of control. I can't for the life of me understand how people still try and debate that.

Yes, she is an exile. But an "Allowed Exile" because it allows her to play her role in the overlaying system.

Which in the end, means she has a purpose, which means she isn't an exile, she's a program with a cover SMILEY
#36300410577 02/20/2008 10:46:28 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
NightTrace wrote:
The Oracle was just another layer of the system of control. I can't for the life of me understand how people still try and debate that.

Yes, she is an exile. But an "Allowed Exile" because it allows her to play her role in the overlaying system.

Which in the end, means she has a purpose, which means she isn't an exile, she's a program with a cover SMILEY" />
Or it means that no matter how much you want to delete her, her deletion might make the System unstable, so you can't.
#36300416154 02/28/2008 06:39:53 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
GoDGiVeR wrote:
Chemuel wrote:
Without him, it would be like Nightfall all over again.
Oh gawd that would be so awesome.

<_<

I would love to see some kind of Nightfall-like LE for the Anniversary Event, Nightfall was great
#36300418991 03/04/2008 01:17:40 Re:Oracle's Philosophy
Chemuel wrote:
Imthesixth wrote:
Most powerful?... perhaps, but she's only a L1. I could slap her through the face and she'd die XD
You'd have to get IL fist, and by the time you broke her evade, you be thoroughly boned.

Not quite... There's an easier route. Go on a mission to see her, pull out my gun and bam. Seraph or no, unless she can dodge bullets (which is doubtful at L1) I'd have done it.
- For the inadmissible Truth.


http://www.ICDivision.com/

#36300421848 03/08/2008 11:26:42 Re:Oracle's Philosophy

Probably the mission would fail and the controller would coment "gratz you just made the Matrix collapse and destroyed the story continuity - mission failed, start again"

SMILEY

On a serious note - I've never really delved into the symbolical/philosophical/referential aspects of the Matrix franchise, and I'm not that adept in philosophy (not at all, actually).


But the way I've always understood this "you're here to understand why you made the choice" part is that every choice for every situation is pre-made by the person, and as soon the person experiences and "understands" all the reasons that influence this choice, he "actually makes" it, consciously.

So, in this case, Neo has made the choice to save Morpheus or Trinity long before it comes that far, or rather, it's the only choice he'd ever make if it came to such a situation (and it will come to this because others' choices are premade, aswell), and when faced with the situation, he perceives and understands what's going on around him, all the arguments for and against each choice, and then chooses.

If all choices ever made by anyone are all predestined and somehow found in the person('s brain?), that's how the Oracle could foresee everything - being able to calculate each physical chain of reactions and every person's action - unless she doesn't see through a part, and thus "can't see beyond choices she doesn't understand".


So anyway, it turns out that this is a direct reference to some quote that means something totally different. The "choice he's already made" was taking the red pill, the "liberation".

One can't ignore such an obvious reference, but also not the fact that it starts of the choice of taking candy (looking away from it being a possible reference to the red pill - something I didn't think about previously) right here, right now.

So anyways, was I completely wrong, or was my "interpretation" somehow correct?