[9.2.2] He's afraid we might want it too - Vector - 1/23/08

((That event was a pile of .. I won't use much space for it here, but seeing those reds come over 1nce a month to shoot up our asses in mindless pvp and not backing off when we try to RP - I'm certain some of you here realize that's what some of us try to do in events by now - and then keeps shooting/hacking and just plainly messes up the event for the sake of "Kill the terrorits" GG... and a RSI sample of Shimada from Systematica to the Architect? *CENSORED* did I miss there? oh.. that's right another pvp event which looks cool here, no doubt, but was really bad ingame mostly under the talk with the Intruder tho, the rest was okay. So let me see, why don't we agree that on Vector we do RP, and maybe I should get that across to LESIG as well cause since Khepril left/kicked whatever, nothing much has happened on the server RP-wise. Me and Kevin from EPN caught Systematica redhanded in a Zion contruct and nothing has come from it, I find that a bit funny.. is there something Im not being told about here?... looks like it... but back to the event, and future events as well... Reds, back the f.. off and we'll promise as much as we can not to bust your events but if you want busting... it's coming, I leave it in your court... and to the ones we see 1nce a month... GG kids, hope you felt good after trashing yet another EPN event... oh *CENSORED* I forgot... you were "invited".))

I received some of your hate tells and they were uncalled for, rude, vulgar, and frankly just silly.  You told me to stop attacking you and let you "RP" ..

This is Vector.  You're Zion.  I'm not.

I'm gonna attack. 

QQ

Follow yellow hardlines and you don't have to be invited.

And in the last month, I've probably spent more time logged onto Vector than 80% or more of the Vector population, so you can shove that. 

Also shove your comment about other org "messing" up events.  It's meant to be that way.  You think Machines showing up was an accident?

Illyria22 wrote:

machete wrote:

Last time I checked the system keeps their operatives on a need to know basis, and most times they don't need to know. 

And Zion's leadership doesn't? 

Maybe if they'd shared that they were building New Zion -- that they were doing something they knew would cause the truce to collapse -- with their own people, the citizens of Zion might have had something to say about it.  They might have expressed their outrage that their leaders were knowingly going to break the truce and put them all in danger.  They might have wanted the truce to remain in place so it could be the first step on the path to true peace.  But no, Zion's leaders kept their people on a 'need to know' basis, and got themselves back into a war.

I think most of us would have said, "Oh, you're building a new city? That sounds like a good idea - with the Truce, we're going to need more space eventually for our new extracts. Oh, it's fortified? Well, with the Truce, they shouldn't be worried about needing to attack us, anyway, so that's no problem. I bet Zero One's fortified, too."

But the System's keeping quite a bit more from you folks. They know what he wants. Don't you think if you knew, you might be able to do your "job" better?

I find it interesting that the Machine keeps it's city fortified with an infantry line of sentinels, tow bombs, and those Megalith, beetle-looking monstrosities a hundred meters away from the place, yet Zion expands and puts EMP devices above it's door and WE'RE the aggressors.

Terms of the Truce:
Zion is allowed to free the minds of those that want out without interference on the Machine's part or fear of being attacked in the real.

How the Truce was violated:
The Machine hired other redpills to hinder awakneings and wrote over the minds of Zion ops.
Zion made it impossible for the Machine to attack it's city in the real.

Moral of the story:
Don't get someone that sits in a chair all day and a fortune teller to make your treaties.

Moral of the story:

Don't get someone that sits in a chair all day and a fortune teller to make your treaties.

Terms of the Truce:
Zion is allowed to free the minds of those that want out without interference on the Machine's part or fear of being attacked in the real.

GamiSB wrote:

Moral of the story:

Don't get someone that sits in a chair all day and a fortune teller to make your treaties.

Amen to that

Pyraci wrote:

I find it interesting that the Machine keeps it's city fortified with an infantry line of sentinels, tow bombs, and those Megalith, beetle-looking monstrosities a hundred meters away from the place, yet Zion expands and puts EMP devices above it's door and WE'RE the aggressors.

They had those fortifications before the truce, presumably as remnants from the original war. They weren't built during the truce. We knew that they had the fortifications when the truce was made, they weren't built in secret. Do they still have them? Possibly, but we don't know it for certain if they do and if they are still functioning. Again unless you know the truce term for term as agreed between Zion and Machine, you have no idea what was a violation and what wasn't.
You cannot dismiss the main argument about the new city allowing ships to retreat inside after launching attacks on lightly defended Machine installations. Didn't EPN plan and attempt this very thing a while back? Would Zion really have closed the gates on them is they required New Zion's protection against retaliation?

If I remember correctly, that plan was thought up and put into place after this debacle started again. Is there any proof that the Machine let any of it's defenses down? And what "lightly defended Machine installations" are we speaking about?

You're right in that we don't know what the terms of the truce are. But then again, why is there no question to this decision? He just gives the order and it happens, right? And what about the decision to not allow anymore extractions? I've seen nothing more than assumptions on the Machinist side of this that they will continue, but be exclusive to Machinsts. When I asked where the proof of this was, I believe yours was the only answer, and you said that it was probable or likely. Though I respect your point-of-view, that just doesn't constitute hard evidence of the policy.

Let us not take the word of the authority as the truth, but the truth as the authority.

Pyraci wrote:

If I remember correctly, that plan was thought up and put into place after this debacle started again. Is there any proof that the Machine let any of it's defenses down? And what "lightly defended Machine installations" are we speaking about?

You're right in that we don't know what the terms of the truce are. But then again, why is there no question to this decision? He just gives the order and it happens, right? And what about the decision to not allow anymore extractions? I've seen nothing more than assumptions on the Machinist side of this that they will continue, but be exclusive to Machinsts. When I asked where the proof of this was, I believe yours was the only answer, and you said that it was probable or likely. Though I respect your point-of-view, that just doesn't constitute hard evidence of the policy.

Let us not take the word of the authority as the truth, but the truth as the authority.

Their plan showed that the possibility was there, EPN took advantage of the situation as soon as they knew that they could attempt it. In fact if New Zion hadn't have been found EPN could have still made the attempt and possibly succeeded as the Machines may not have gained the intel and increased security in preparation. Do you think that the entire stretch of the powerlines are defended enough to hold off an attack before Machine forces manage to respond? As I said it's only a possibility that the Machines, as part of the terms of the truce, shut down their defences but then again we won't know now as they'd most certainly be re-activated now.

We didn't see any questions from the Agents on this, programs lead by the Architect, but Machinists certainly had plenty of questions regarding all aspects of the decision. As I've always said, my assumptions are based on what facts I knew at the time coupled with what I didn't know but considered to be logical, I've never claimed to be correct.

The Machine threatens us with a war, we fight back. Of course people are going to attempt to go on the offensive if you declare war on them. It's war, after all. It's silly to play dirty yet expect the enemy to play fair, just because you have more to lose than them.

"but then again we won't know now as they'd most certainly be re-activated now."

The same way it's not certain that EPN would have made and acted on a plan to attack the lines because it was AFTER the war started again. As such, the war is what drove them to decide it was possible and act accordingly.

And if all these ideas are just assumptions with no claim to be correct, why defend as the truth and argue them as such, without scrutinizing the authority for confirmation? I always thought that the Machinist argument would be based in hard evidence and fact, not assumptions made on limited, groomed, and questionable information.

GamiSB wrote:

Terms of the Truce:
Zion is allowed to free the minds of those that want out without interference on the Machine's part or fear of being attacked in the real.

You know this as fact to be the only text in the truce?

Given that the only time either side ever said "Hey you can't do that!" was because of these two issues and the information obtained shortly after Neo did his thing, yeah I do.

People like to make the truce out to be some written hard coded document with a bar code and the councils signature on it but really all it was was a mutual understanding of some of the needs and wants of both sides.

Pyraci wrote:

The Machine threatens us with a war, we fight back. Of course people are going to attempt to go on the offensive if you declare war on them. It's war, after all. It's silly to play dirty yet expect the enemy to play fair, just because you have more to lose than them.

"but then again we won't know now as they'd most certainly be re-activated now."

The same way it's not certain that EPN would have made and acted on a plan to attack the lines because it was AFTER the war started again. As such, the war is what drove them to decide it was possible and act accordingly.

And if all these ideas are just assumptions with no claim to be correct, why defend as the truth and argue them as such, without scrutinizing the authority for confirmation? I always thought that the Machinist argument would be based in hard evidence and fact, not assumptions made on limited, groomed, and questionable information.

So EPN wouldn't have taken the opportunity to try to achieve what they want, freeing mankind at the cost of the Machines if there wasn't a war going on? They could have attempted it at anytime, anytime during the truce. It wasn't the war that drove them to it, it was the availability of resources.

I'm sure we both know that if the opportunity was there they would have attempted it anyway and if the truce was still in effect and Zion having nothing to do with EPN, Zion could claim innocence and if the EPN attack was destroyed or if there were survivors who made it back, could hide them without the Machines knowing or having any way to prove that they were there. Yes these are assumptions, but can you say for absolute certainty, knowing what we know about Zion and EPN, that it wouldn't have happened, that it wasn't possible?

I defend my ideas and assumptions with the same reasons why others defend theirs... because I believe them to be true or what would most likely happen given what I know. The Machinist argument, one that is put forward by Machinists as a whole would be mostly limited to hard facts, but these are my personal beliefs and arguments, of which I'm perfectly entitled. I've never claimed to be the voice of the Machinists, I let our liaisons present our unified voice.

EPN were already outside the Truce. They were already being hunted down. Anything concerning them is not really viable as a contribution towards the degradation of the Truce. However, I would say that much of the past Cypherite action is admissable as action against the Truce since there is a clear link between their management and the Machines. In other words? The Cypherites were puppets, EPN are "rogue" and under their own direction.

It still strikes me as incredibly odd that the Machines could construe a base placed considerably further away from the Machine city, proven only to have defensive capabilities as an act against the Truce. After all, if we were mounting an assault, don't you think we'd want to have a base closer to where we'd be hitting them? Don't you think we'd have mobile attack units (and, please, if you're considering the APU a mobile attack unit, that's a joke. Aside from the fact that they're incredibly slow, they'd get there faster leaving directly from the old city - so why position them at the new city?)

If anything, it was a push towards isolationism, which has historically been a pacifistic move. We wanted to concentrate on internal affairs, and with good reason. We've had a tumultuous past with the Machines, and didn't want to risk anything. And why should we? We'd no evidence that they had anything to lose in attacking, and nothing to fear in doing so. Hell, in a way they'd already been on the offensive, especially when they'd been sending sentinels out after every EPN ship they could find and guiding the Cypherites in sabotaging our every move under the guise of "holding us to the one percent" (I'm certain the EMP blast of Zion's gate helped a whole lot in that goal).

But building a new city was out and out against the Truce, right? Gimme a break. When had you heard a *CENSORED* word of that before it happened? You give me hard evidence that it had been said that no new cities could be built and no new fortifications could be used before the discovery of New Zion, and you can have all the justification you'd ever want for your war. But it's not there, and neither is the justification.

And you wonder why I'm hesitant to engage in another "peace."

Ah, but how do you *know* your leadership tells you everything, Machete? 

Also, there is a bit of a difference between the Machines not telling us more about the Intruder (and perhaps delaying us in doing our "job" ) and Zion not telling its citizens about something that will put the lives of every one of its citizens at risk.

Illyria

It still strikes me as incredibly odd that the Machines could construe a base placed considerably further away from the Machine city, proven only to have defensive capabilities as an act against the Truce. After all, if we were mounting an assault, don't you think we'd want to have a base closer to where we'd be hitting them? Don't you think we'd have mobile attack units (and, please, if you're considering the APU a mobile attack unit, that's a joke. Aside from the fact that they're incredibly slow, they'd get there faster leaving directly from the old city - so why position them at the new city?)

If anything, it was a push towards isolationism, which has historically been a pacifistic move. We wanted to concentrate on internal affairs, and with good reason. We've had a tumultuous past with the Machines, and didn't want to risk anything. And why should we? We'd no evidence that they had anything to lose in attacking, and nothing to fear in doing so. Hell, in a way they'd already been on the offensive, especially when they'd been sending sentinels out after every EPN ship they could find and guiding the Cypherites in sabotaging our every move under the guise of "holding us to the one percent" (I'm certain the EMP blast of Zion's gate helped a whole lot in that goal).

But building a new city was out and out against the Truce, right? Gimme a break. When had you heard a *CENSORED* word of that before it happened? You give me hard evidence that it had been said that no new cities could be built and no new fortifications could be used before the discovery of New Zion, and you can have all the justification you'd ever want for your war. But it's not there, and neither is the justification.

And you wonder why I'm hesitant to engage in another "peace."

Ah, but how do you *know* your leadership tells you everything, Machete? 

Illyria

It's fair to say they don't.

They knew as much about New Zion as we did the whole Cypherite debacle.