[9.2.2] Snug in our beds forever and ever - Syntax - 1/17/08

Vinia wrote:

When did I say go and die? I'd rather prefer you stay in New Zion, look after the innocent children and civilians and prosper there, at least then I can try to persuade the Machines to leave you alone, but I know that you have no intentions of doing so.

If you truly know me as your statement suggests you do, you'd know that I care about more than just the blues, but as blues are the Human race, you're *CENSORED* right I care about them, in fact the only thing I care about more than the blues is the vision of the future, of Mankind and Machine united.

I probably won't see this future, most likely down to the actions of you and yours, so making sure bluepills survive past my expiration matters more to me than anything.

 You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.

You obviously haven't read the previous posts, I'm not attempting to stop the 1% who cannot accept the simulation from waking. I just said that we do not need Zion to wake them up to allow the simulation to run normally, this is shown by the system being declared out of bounds to Zionites. If Zion still had an essential function it would not be efficient for the Machines to attempt to stop them.

No Machinist I have heard of has ever 'shoved' bluepills down anyones throat, the only people to do that are the Cypherites. Also, it is only the dead in the pods who get recycled not living bluepills, I can't believe that you would think that if bluepills do not wish to join the Machinists that they'd get recycled... The only place where you could have gotten that idea is from Zion propaganda.

The majority of Machinists are redpills 'freed' by Zion who have agreed with or see the benefit of working with the Machines we do not wake bluepills specifically to bolster our forces, not when we get a steady number leaving Zion to join us. If you are not going to let the redpills join us then you are prohibiting them their choice... something which I thought you so passionately want everyone to have freedom of... or is the correct choice only something which you approve of?

You obviously haven't read the previous posts, I'm not attempting to stop the 1% who cannot accept the simulation from waking. I just said that we do not need Zion to wake them up to allow the simulation to run normally, this is shown by the system being declared out of bounds to Zionites. If Zion still had an essential function it would not be efficient for the Machines to attempt to stop them.

No Machinist I have heard of has ever 'shoved' bluepills down anyones throat, the only people to do that are the Cypherites. Also, it is only the dead in the pods who get recycled not living bluepills, I can't believe that you would think that if bluepills do not wish to join the Machinists that they'd get recycled... The only place where you could have gotten that idea is from Zion propaganda.

The majority of Machinists are redpills 'freed' by Zion who have agreed with or see the benefit of working with the Machines we do not wake bluepills specifically to bolster our forces, not when we get a steady number leaving Zion to join us. If you are not going to let the redpills join us then you are prohibiting them their choice... something which I thought you so passionately want everyone to have freedom of... or is the correct choice only something which you approve of?

So you are prepared to give them their choice? Zion or Machines?

You'll forgive me if I don't trust you masters to allow that.

You argue that Zion has no purpose now; that the Machines and the bluepills no longer need Zion to interfere. This is foolish in the extreme. Zion exists because there must be a choice; without it, there is only the Matrix.

Who are you to take our purpose away from us?

Oh, that's right, a Machine apologist. You're a traitor to your kind. 

The Seed of Evil came to Adam in a pleasing form, that of an apple that he could eat. And who gave him that apple? His companion, his wife, Eve, knowing full well the evil it contained. Would you, Vinia, be the one to give the apple to your fellow man? Your words are full of promise and pleading, asking us to stop fighting and you'll make the Machines understand that we all just want to get along. Just lay down your guns, Zion, and everything will be fine, right?

Again, after all I've seen of what the Machine is capable, you'll forgive me if I can't trust them. Or you.

The Seed of Evil came to Adam in a pleasing form

Zion exists because there must be a choice; without it, there is only the Matrix.

Who are you to take our purpose away from us?

Whilst I had to stifle a bout of laughter I can still answer this.

The choice is to accept the simulation or not, nothing more, nothing less. Zion existed due to a process of the choice, a process which has since changed, there can still be a choice without Zion, bluepills make this decision without knowledge of Zion or its inhabitants. Try not to delude yourselfs, If Zion were to disappear tomorrow the choice would still exist. You are grasping at a defunct idea purpose in order to convince yourselves that you exist for a reason. I will not deny that before Neo's truce, Zion was a vital aspect of keeping the simulation working, but things change.

The only people who can take away your purpose are those who gave it to you and seeing as Zion was built due to the requirements of the Machines as a layer of control, they can certainly take it away again.

GamiSB wrote:

Please do us all a favor and stop trying to put words in my mouth. You know perfectly well what was meant there and it was hardly that Zion and EPN are the only ones that could do the job. It was simply to say that its needed (much to our Cypherites friends dismay). As for removing splinters I'll believe it when I see it and given that we have people that took the blue pill still fighting at the impulse I'd say your full of just waiting to believe it or you can show some actual evidence for it. How ironic that the organization that preaches logic and reason still sets so much on blind faith.

GamiSB wrote:

Zion/EPN go out and looks for the 1% that have problems with the system. Some can deal with it and cope for awhile but eventually they all hit that stage where nothing makes sense and if they are not removed by Zion they self substantiate and possibly cause others to question or even worse hurting others. So while I'm sure you own bias is going to just ignore all this, even when it comes from the guy that built your dream world, Zion freeing people is a needed part of the system and without it those 99 dreamers you want to keep all snug in their beds are never going to get that perfect sleep.

No words were put in your mouth, what I highlighted was the lack of words from your mouth. If you mean something, say it. If we were to apply what we think you meant, that'd be putting words into your mouth. Show me a bluepill who has had questions about his environment, taken the bluepill and is still 'fighting at the impulse'. Just because you haven't seen it does not mean its not happening. I've not seen Zion or EPN wake any bluepills for a good while, but that does not mean its not happening...

Lack of evidence does not mean you can disregard peoples beliefs or that something isn't happening. Also, whilst I represent my Organisation, basing any assumption on it's beliefs and thoughts on my own is flawed.

No you did put words in my mouth. Does that highlighted area say that ONLY Zion and EPN do this? No it just says that they do. No where to I sudgest that those two groups are the only people that can or should free minds. Also the burdon of proof is on you to show me evidence that the Machine can remove the splinter. All you've given me is your opinion but nothing to show why your opinion is the truth.

As for the bluepill, it is nothing more then a sleeping pill with a code to block the redpill in it. There is nothing in it that rearanges how one thinks.

Zion/EPN go out and looks for the 1% that have problems with the system. Some can deal with it and cope for awhile but eventually they all hit that stage where nothing makes sense and if they are not removed by Zion they self substantiate and possibly cause others to question or even worse hurting others. So while I'm sure you own bias is going to just ignore all this, even when it comes from the guy that built your dream world, Zion freeing people is a needed part of the system and without it those 99 dreamers you want to keep all snug in their beds are never going to get that perfect sleep.

Lol! You really believe that you are required by the system to wake up the 1%

Once again, a shot, and a miss (by a mile I might add). Of course the average "John Doe", father of 4, successful IT employee isn't going to just up and leave people he loves and the life he loves. However if they don't believe it's real any more, and (you said it yourself) are regarded as a bit of a nut case, then what have they to lose? They get to prove to everyone they were right, they get to see "the truth", they get to look out, from the other side of the looking glass. You don't approach "innocent blues" you approach "vulnerable blues".
So don't try and fool me with this innocent blue pills getting to choose and having freedom of choice, you perform such an act each time you "free" someone that, in their dizzy state of mind, being bombarded by all these truths and all these wondrous promises of seeing the truth, even if it won't be easy and you can't go back, will almost certainly say yes; because as I said before, they stop listening once you mention seeing the truth, and start fantasising .

Assuming much? Seriously where do you come up with this stuff? Who stops listening when someones offering you everything they've ever wanted? Sorry if you decided to go deaf halfway through your awakening but really now to generalize everyone else as being that idiotic is really something. If they go deaf that is purely their fault. We can't control what they do and listen to all we can do is answer what we can and open the door for them. Yeah we may have an idea of what a person's going to pick when it comes time to offering the pills but that doesn't make them take the red, they still have to pick up the pill and swallow. Again there is much more to this process then just "Want to know the truth? Pick a pill".

And lets assume for a moment that no one did this. Didn't bother with the 1%. 3 million people in a city of 300 million. All looking for answers, detaching themselves from society until "those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster."

View it however you want but at least try and realize that "praying on the vulnerable" leaves the 99% to sleep sweet and soundly.

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Zion exists because there must be a choice; without it, there is only the Matrix.

Who are you to take our purpose away from us?

Whilst I had to stifle a bout of laughter I can still answer this.

The choice is to accept the simulation or not, nothing more, nothing less. Zion existed due to a process of the choice, a process which has since changed, there can still be a choice without Zion, bluepills make this decision without knowledge of Zion or its inhabitants. Try not to delude yourselfs, If Zion were to disappear tomorrow the choice would still exist. You are grasping at a defunct idea purpose in order to convince yourselves that you exist for a reason. I will not deny that before Neo's truce, Zion was a vital aspect of keeping the simulation working, but things change.

The only people who can take away your purpose are those who gave it to you and seeing as Zion was built due to the requirements of the Machines as a layer of control, they can certainly take it away again.

GamiSB wrote:

Zion/EPN go out and looks for the 1% that have problems with the system. Some can deal with it and cope for awhile but eventually they all hit that stage where nothing makes sense and if they are not removed by Zion they self substantiate and possibly cause others to question or even worse hurting others. So while I'm sure you own bias is going to just ignore all this, even when it comes from the guy that built your dream world, Zion freeing people is a needed part of the system and without it those 99 dreamers you want to keep all snug in their beds are never going to get that perfect sleep.

The highlighted phrases lead Vinia to the following obvious conclusion:

Vinia wrote:

Lol! You really believe that you are required by the system to wake up the 1%

Then you say she's put words in your mouth? No, she didn't. If you had meant that merely freeing people was a requirement, you'd say that. Instead, you said Zion & EPN are required to do it. You don't use the word 'only', no, but in the context in which you've stated your case, that word isn't necessary; it's implicit.

Now drop it.

Thanks Proc, you saved me the hassle of arranging the quotes out on a tree and explaining how the intricate ways of wording can impose meanings even if they aren't meant.

By only stating EPN and Zion and no one else, the suggestion is that only they can do it, backed up by subsequent (Highlighted) sentences in which the only Org pointed out was Zion.

A splinter of the mind could be, for example, someones view of a building which doesn't seem right. (I am of course refering to Beyond - The Animatrix) What is then required for people to continue living their lives as normal is for the system to correct the error thus erasing any outside influence on a persons perception...

Vinia wrote:

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Zion exists because there must be a choice; without it, there is only the Matrix.

Who are you to take our purpose away from us?

Whilst I had to stifle a bout of laughter I can still answer this.

The choice is to accept the simulation or not, nothing more, nothing less. Zion existed due to a process of the choice, a process which has since changed, there can still be a choice without Zion, bluepills make this decision without knowledge of Zion or its inhabitants. Try not to delude yourselfs, If Zion were to disappear tomorrow the choice would still exist. You are grasping at a defunct idea purpose in order to convince yourselves that you exist for a reason. I will not deny that before Neo's truce, Zion was a vital aspect of keeping the simulation working, but things change.

The only people who can take away your purpose are those who gave it to you and seeing as Zion was built due to the requirements of the Machines as a layer of control, they can certainly take it away again.

The decision to question the simulation or not would exist, but the means to facilitate that choice wouldn't. Cyphs and Machinists are working to keep people in the Matrix, since that's the architect's order; to keep people from being extracted. THAT is what I think Feng is getting at. Machinists(and certainly Cyphs) aren't offering the red to people as part of the choice, or performing any known extractions of their own. So people will continue to question, but if no one's getting out, they can't really act on the choice.

Purpose transcends what the creator gives the creation. We created the Machine with a purpose. Those Machine transcended it's purpose and became something more. The Machine created Zion with a purpose, and now Zion is doing the same. Zion(new and old) represents what is wrong with the Matrix, and as long as the Matrix is flawed, Zion will fulfill that purpose.

Read my post again. Take it slowly this time.

Read mine again, if you don't understand the argument comeing half way in then don't try and but in. The person it was directed to understood it and thats really all that matters. If I needed to clarify it for you or Vinia I did so in my last post and it would have been better to ask then jump right on in assumeing. ((its all been IC btw, much love to proc and vinia))

Vinia wrote:

A splinter of the mind could be, for example, someones view of a building which doesn't seem right. (I am of course refering to Beyond - The Animatrix) What is then required for people to continue living their lives as normal is for the system to correct the error thus erasing any outside influence on a persons perception...

That doesn't remove the splinter only what caused it. What happens when they go back to said building and nothing is the same as it was the day before. You don't think that doesn't say something to them and start them down that road? (The end of Beyond) What is requierd and what happens are two diffrent things.

((also since we are takeing non-canon sources as examples "A Life Less Empty" - Matrix Comics Vol 1 for the story of a member of the 1% that took the blue.))

 

I'm not saying that Zion doesn't have a purpose, I merely stated that the original purpose for which it was designed for has been removed. That purpose being the people who can wake bluepills. Machinists can do this, whether or not we do or not is another matter.

Vinia wrote:

A splinter of the mind could be, for example, someones view of a building which doesn't seem right. (I am of course refering to Beyond - The Animatrix) What is then required for people to continue living their lives as normal is for the system to correct the error thus erasing any outside influence on a persons perception...

That doesn't remove the splinter only what caused it. What happens when they go back to said building and nothing is the same as it was the day before. You don't think that doesn't say something to them and start them down that road? (The end of Beyond) What is requierd and what happens are two diffrent things.

((also since we are takeing non-canon sources as examples "A Life Less Empty" - Matrix Comics Vol 1 for the story of a member of the 1% that took the blue.))

((Always, unless stated specifically, IC in these threads! <3))

When they went back to the building the next day nothing was the same because it had all been demolished and a parking lot built thus an attempt by the system to remove a source of a splinter. Small Splinters can heal, a person is quite able to live life and ignore something if it's small. The larger problems and those who absolutely cannot accept what they see is another matter. They would need to be woken up, but that doesn't mean that Zion or EPN are required to do so. It isn't black or white, complete accepting or unaccepting, it can be something subtle that provokes the mind into thinking somethings wrong...

((Would love to see an LE which addresses the point of questioning bluepills either not getting extracted or beeing seen to by the Machinists, but until then I can only say what I believe will be the case as close as possible to what could happen, obviously within the confines of the story... Unfortunately not all aspects can be portrayed and I guess that I shouldn't have brought something to the debate which hasn't been canonised. Evidence is obviously key and I take most sources that have had approval from the WB as cannonish which is why I never refer to peoples RP))

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

A splinter of the mind could be, for example, someones view of a building which doesn't seem right. (I am of course refering to Beyond - The Animatrix) What is then required for people to continue living their lives as normal is for the system to correct the error thus erasing any outside influence on a persons perception...

That doesn't remove the splinter only what caused it. What happens when they go back to said building and nothing is the same as it was the day before. You don't think that doesn't say something to them and start them down that road? (The end of Beyond) What is requierd and what happens are two diffrent things.

((also since we are takeing non-canon sources as examples "A Life Less Empty" - Matrix Comics Vol 1 for the story of a member of the 1% that took the blue.))

((Always, unless stated specifically, IC in these threads! <3))

When they went back to the building the next day nothing was the same because it had all been demolished and a parking lot built thus an attempt by the system to remove a source of a splinter. Small Splinters can heal, a person is quite able to live life and ignore something if it's small. The larger problems and those who absolutely cannot accpet what they see is another matter. They would need to be woken up, but that doesn't mean that Zion or EPN are required to do so.

Of course, I will agree that small splinters (seeing a man jump accross rooftops for just a second being an example) can typically be shrugged off. However the person's mind is what plays the role in this not the system. If events like this continue to unfold then for awhile maybe they will still be able to shrug them off but it will come to a point when those tiny splinters start to merge together and beomce a giant splinter which can't be removed. It's really not such much removeing the splinter only ignoreing it.

Now my point was never that Zion and EPN were the only groups that had to do this only that they play the most active roles in the process that is very much needed (the freeing of minds that is not Zion/EPN freeing minds). If the Machine really wanted to criple Zion and EPN in a way I they could never recover from it would be to remove their self given purpose of freeing minds and have the Machine take it up instead.

xenin wrote:

Vinia wrote:

When did I say go and die? I'd rather prefer you stay in New Zion, look after the innocent children and civilians and prosper there, at least then I can try to persuade the Machines to leave you alone, but I know that you have no intentions of doing so.

If you truly know me as your statement suggests you do, you'd know that I care about more than just the blues, but as blues are the Human race, you're *CENSORED* right I care about them, in fact the only thing I care about more than the blues is the vision of the future, of Mankind and Machine united.

I probably won't see this future, most likely down to the actions of you and yours, so making sure bluepills survive past my expiration matters more to me than anything.

 You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.

You obviously haven't read the previous posts, I'm not attempting to stop the 1% who cannot accept the simulation from waking. I just said that we do not need Zion to wake them up to allow the simulation to run normally, this is shown by the system being declared out of bounds to Zionites. If Zion still had an essential function it would not be efficient for the Machines to attempt to stop them.

No Machinist I have heard of has ever 'shoved' bluepills down anyones throat, the only people to do that are the Cypherites. Also, it is only the dead in the pods who get recycled not living bluepills, I can't believe that you would think that if bluepills do not wish to join the Machinists that they'd get recycled... The only place where you could have gotten that idea is from Zion propaganda.

The majority of Machinists are redpills 'freed' by Zion who have agreed with or see the benefit of working with the Machines we do not wake bluepills specifically to bolster our forces, not when we get a steady number leaving Zion to join us. If you are not going to let the redpills join us then you are prohibiting them their choice... something which I thought you so passionately want everyone to have freedom of... or is the correct choice only something which you approve of?

 The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong. 

 As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed.

 What I have a Problem with is that The Machines are trying to Stop Zion from extracting Bluepills from the Matrix and that they themselves will do it, possibly to fill their ranks in the fight against Zion THAT is what I have a problem with. If You do continue to do that, then we will NEVER listen to your "out of Bounds" nonsense and will continue to extract the 1% from the Matrix as we see fit.

 Also I see you lot don't have a problem with The Mervs extracting Bluepills from the Matrix to the Merovingian's Ranks, unless of course your endorsing his Organisation over ours, are you?

The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong.

Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..."
Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.

 As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed.

Ok... so how many paces do you give them before shooting them in their backs? lol! Choice indeed... does that freedom end after they've joined Zion?

 What I have a Problem with is that The Machines are trying to Stop Zion from extracting Bluepills from the Matrix and that they themselves will do it, possibly to fill their ranks in the fight against Zion THAT is what I have a problem with. If You do continue to do that, then we will NEVER listen to your "out of Bounds" nonsense and will continue to extract the 1% from the Matrix as we see fit.

That's the point, you're not doing it as you see fit... you're constantly under pressure from the system waking teams are under constant threat... Gami has asked me for proof that Machines or Machinists are waking bluepills. I could offer none, so I doubt that you can prove otherwise. Do you really believe that the Machines are preventing you from waking bluepills just so they can do it themselves to add to their 'Army'? Just because Zion recruits to their military doesn't mean that Machinists or the Machines are... If you hold the Choice so dear to your heart, does it really matter who wakes them as long as they have been awakened and let them make their own decisions?

 Also I see you lot don't have a problem with The Mervs extracting Bluepills from the Matrix to the Merovingian's Ranks, unless of course your endorsing his Organisation over ours, are you?

Lol, I didn't realise it had to be endorsed! However, seeing that we are at war with Zion and not the Merv, I think that you're a little higher up on the scale of attention then they are... but what you see and what is actually happening are two different things...

That's the point, you're not doing it as you see fit... you're constantly under pressure from the system waking teams are under constant threat... Gami has asked me for proof that Machines or Machinists are waking bluepills. I could offer none, so I doubt that you can prove otherwise. Do you really believe that the Machines are preventing you from waking bluepills just so they can do it themselves to add to their 'Army'? Just because Zion recruits to their military doesn't mean that Machinists or the Machines are... If you hold the Choice so dear to your heart, does it really matter who wakes them as long as they have been awakened and let them make their own decisions?

Actully I was asking for evidence that the Machine can "remove the splinter". Personlly I give everyone (minus Cyphs) the benifit of the doubt that they are wakeing blues when able or needed.

Just saying.

Vinia wrote:

That's the point, you're not doing it as you see fit... you're constantly under pressure from the system waking teams are under constant threat... Gami has asked me for proof that Machines or Machinists are waking bluepills. I could offer none, so I doubt that you can prove otherwise. Do you really believe that the Machines are preventing you from waking bluepills just so they can do it themselves to add to their 'Army'? Just because Zion recruits to their military doesn't mean that Machinists or the Machines are... If you hold the Choice so dear to your heart, does it really matter who wakes them as long as they have been awakened and let them make their own decisions?

Actully I was asking for evidence that the Machine can "remove the splinter". Personlly I give everyone (minus Cyphs) the benifit of the doubt that they are wakeing blues when able or needed.

Just saying.

xenin wrote:

The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong.

Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..."
Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.

Vinia wrote:

xenin wrote:

The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong.

Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..."
Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.

In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it.

Pyraci wrote:

Vinia wrote:

xenin wrote:

The Architect said no more Awakenings allowed, that would include the 1% who realise the Matrix isn't Real. And with all due respect, You and Proc spread Machine Propaganda all the time whenever you say The Machines are right and Zion is wrong.

Actually, the Architect said "Agent Gray.... Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed..."
Consider that the Truce allowed Zion to wake bluepills unhindered and that the sentence was preceded by Zion it can be reasonable to assume that Zion are no longer allowed to wake bluepills. It does not mean that others cannot wake them. We have battered out a fairly decent agreement that, in order to keep the current simulation running and to prevent the 1% who could be a danger to themselves and to others, some awakenings are necessary. This does not mean, however that Zion are the ones required to do it.

In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it.

Hence the reason why I said it was reasonable to assume. Given what we've discussed in this thread about the 1% requiring waking to prevent any complications and that the Machines are trying to prevent Zion and EPN from waking bluepills that really leaves Machinists and Merv Operatives who can wake them but there is nothing to show that they have done so. The only point of reference is the truce itself and none of us Zion/Merv/Machinist has seen the full details of the truce. However the truce dictated what Zion and the Machines could do within/out the system, if the Machines had allowed Zion to wake bluepills but not the possibility for their own to do it, it would have been a mistake imo. The only other way is to analyse the Architects wording which can be taken either way, but for me, the evidence as discussed would point, logically to what I postulated.

 Considering that there 1% chance people become aware of the Matrix, considering that Machinists and Mervs may possibly awaken bluepills and considering that the Machines will carry on Hostilities after the Intruder is gone, I think Zion will continue to extract Humans from the Matrix Regardless of what the Machines think or say.

 Also, Vinia, there aren't really that many choices in War. So Yeah you can chose to switch sides, but I didn't say there was a choice of how long you had to live, that's up to the individual to make his own choices and to survive. We simply can't take the chance because of Cypherite terrorists on the prowl. You may have to kill Zionite or EPN spies too if you deemed them a security risk, sometimes keeping them prisoners is too high a risk.

Lots of things to respond to in this thread...

AlphaCoder wrote:

You mean to tell me you don't think/see how telling them they have been living a lie is practically a guarantee that they will pop that stupid red pill? "You've been living a lie, discover the truth". You think people are going to turn that down, once you have said that they don't listen to the rest of what you tell them, they are too busy wondering what the hell "the truth" is gunna be after being blissfully ignorant for however long.

This is the main argument against giving the bluepills a *conscious* choice whether or not to take the red or blue pill.  It gives too much away, and alot of people who never would have questioned the simulation otherwise will have their curiosity get the better of them.  Then they're stuck in the desert of the real, unable to go back, and forever regretting the choice they made.  That sounds like the perfect way to make more Cypherites.

xenin wrote:

 You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.

So much for the freedom of choice Zion and EPN are always talking about.  People are free to choose, but only if they pick the 'right' choice.  Who's to say that every bluepill you free will want to stay with the org that extracted them?  Will you keep them imprisoned in New Zion, or will they not be permitted to live?

xenin wrote:

 As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed.  

Oh wait, you answered my question right there.

Pyraci wrote:

In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it.

We were told that awakenings (by Zion/EPN or by Machinists) are no longer permitted.  I can't tell you if the Machines themselves are doing it.  Maybe that's where bluepills like Mary MacHenry are going. 

If in the future New Zion is destroyed, the Machines will still need a way to keep that 1% from disrupting the system.  They would probably either rebuild Zion or build another version of Zion somewhere else.  It would be ironic if, in order to keep things running, they chose Machinists as the founding population!

Vinia wrote:

I care about more than just the blues, but as blues are the Human race, you're *CENSORED* right I care about them, in fact the only thing I care about more than the blues is the vision of the future, of Mankind and Machine united.

I probably won't see this future, most likely down to the actions of you and yours, so making sure bluepills survive past my expiration matters more to me than anything.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  I want a future where humans and AI will live as part of the same society, not with one side dominating and one side dominated, and not ‘separate but equal' either.  But I do understand that there is no quick fix, and that this will take time. 

We may not see this future, but I hope our descendents will.

Illyria

AlphaCoder wrote:

You mean to tell me you don't think/see how telling them they have been living a lie is practically a guarantee that they will pop that stupid red pill? "You've been living a lie, discover the truth". You think people are going to turn that down, once you have said that they don't listen to the rest of what you tell them, they are too busy wondering what the hell "the truth" is gunna be after being blissfully ignorant for however long.

This is the main argument against giving the bluepills a *conscious* choice whether or not to take the red or blue pill.  It gives too much away, and alot of people who never would have questioned the simulation otherwise will have their curiosity get the better of them.  Then they're stuck in the desert of the real, unable to go back, and forever regretting the choice they made.  That sounds like the perfect way to make more Cypherites.

Lots of things to respond to in this thread...

AlphaCoder wrote:

You mean to tell me you don't think/see how telling them they have been living a lie is practically a guarantee that they will pop that stupid red pill? "You've been living a lie, discover the truth". You think people are going to turn that down, once you have said that they don't listen to the rest of what you tell them, they are too busy wondering what the hell "the truth" is gunna be after being blissfully ignorant for however long.

This is the main argument against giving the bluepills a *conscious* choice whether or not to take the red or blue pill.  It gives too much away, and alot of people who never would have questioned the simulation otherwise will have their curiosity get the better of them.  Then they're stuck in the desert of the real, unable to go back, and forever regretting the choice they made.  That sounds like the perfect way to make more Cypherites.

xenin wrote:

 You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.

So much for the freedom of choice Zion and EPN are always talking about.  People are free to choose, but only if they pick the 'right' choice.  Who's to say that every bluepill you free will want to stay with the org that extracted them?  Will you keep them imprisoned in New Zion, or will they not be permitted to live?

xenin wrote:

 As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed.  

Oh wait, you answered my question right there.

Pyraci wrote:

In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it.

We were told that awakenings (by Zion/EPN or by Machinists) are no longer permitted.  I can't tell you if the Machines themselves are doing it.  Maybe that's where bluepills like Mary MacHenry are going. 

If in the future New Zion is destroyed, the Machines will still need a way to keep that 1% from disrupting the system.  They would probably either rebuild Zion or build another version of Zion somewhere else.  It would be ironic if, in order to keep things running, they chose Machinists as the founding population!

Vinia wrote:

I care about more than just the blues, but as blues are the Human race, you're *CENSORED* right I care about them, in fact the only thing I care about more than the blues is the vision of the future, of Mankind and Machine united.

I probably won't see this future, most likely down to the actions of you and yours, so making sure bluepills survive past my expiration matters more to me than anything.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  I want a future where humans and AI will live as part of the same society, not with one side dominating and one side dominated, and not ‘separate but equal' either.  But I do understand that there is no quick fix, and that this will take time. 

We may not see this future, but I hope our descendents will.

Illyria

 Oh look, here comes little Miss Perfect, The Holier Art Than Thou, the self rightchoues moron. You just did what some, if not most, Machinists do. You borrowed some of our quotes, twisted the meaning of the quote, in this case my quotes, and completely ignore whatever Zionites say thereafter.

 Also I prefer you did NOT use my quotes for your Propaganda Machine. This was What I was trying to tell Vinia when she accused me of using supposed Propaganda, Machinists are no different than any other org.

 Also I don't recall wanting you to use my quotes in that way, plus I was talking to Vinia, NEVER You. So kindly *CENSORED* off and get out of my face, you horrid little *CENSORED*.

Lots of things to respond to in this thread...

AlphaCoder wrote:

You mean to tell me you don't think/see how telling them they have been living a lie is practically a guarantee that they will pop that stupid red pill? "You've been living a lie, discover the truth". You think people are going to turn that down, once you have said that they don't listen to the rest of what you tell them, they are too busy wondering what the hell "the truth" is gunna be after being blissfully ignorant for however long.

This is the main argument against giving the bluepills a *conscious* choice whether or not to take the red or blue pill.  It gives too much away, and alot of people who never would have questioned the simulation otherwise will have their curiosity get the better of them.  Then they're stuck in the desert of the real, unable to go back, and forever regretting the choice they made.  That sounds like the perfect way to make more Cypherites.

xenin wrote:

 You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.

So much for the freedom of choice Zion and EPN are always talking about.  People are free to choose, but only if they pick the 'right' choice.  Who's to say that every bluepill you free will want to stay with the org that extracted them?  Will you keep them imprisoned in New Zion, or will they not be permitted to live?

xenin wrote:

 As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed.  

Oh wait, you answered my question right there.

Pyraci wrote:

In all fairness, is there a point of reference for this agreement where Machinists or "others" are allowed to continue awakenings after what the Architect said? Not saying it doesn't exist, but for those just getting in on this discussion to see both sides of it.

We were told that awakenings (by Zion/EPN or by Machinists) are no longer permitted.  I can't tell you if the Machines themselves are doing it.  Maybe that's where bluepills like Mary MacHenry are going. 

If in the future New Zion is destroyed, the Machines will still need a way to keep that 1% from disrupting the system.  They would probably either rebuild Zion or build another version of Zion somewhere else.  It would be ironic if, in order to keep things running, they chose Machinists as the founding population!

Vinia wrote:

I care about more than just the blues, but as blues are the Human race, you're *CENSORED* right I care about them, in fact the only thing I care about more than the blues is the vision of the future, of Mankind and Machine united.

I probably won't see this future, most likely down to the actions of you and yours, so making sure bluepills survive past my expiration matters more to me than anything.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  I want a future where humans and AI will live as part of the same society, not with one side dominating and one side dominated, and not ‘separate but equal' either.  But I do understand that there is no quick fix, and that this will take time. 

We may not see this future, but I hope our descendents will.

Illyria

 Oh look, here comes little Miss Perfect, The Holier Art Than Thou, the self rightchoues moron. You just did what some, if not most, Machinists do. You borrowed some of our quotes, twisted the meaning of the quote, in this case my quotes, and completely ignore whatever Zionites say thereafter.

 Also I prefer you did NOT use my quotes for your Propaganda Machine. This was What I was trying to tell Vinia when she accused me of using supposed Propaganda, Machinists are no different than any other org.

 Also I don't recall wanting your opinion, Cypherite, well your clearly no Machinist because of your attitude. Plus I was talking to Vinia, NEVER You. So kindly *CENSORED* off and get out of my face, you horrid little *CENSORED*.

 ((I would like to point out for legal reasons, that was all RP))

Illyria22 wrote:

xenin wrote:

 You can't stop that 1% of bluepills from realising how fake the Matrix is. Someone must be their to extract them, you can't keep shoving Bluepills down their throats and Zion extracts them, for those who choose to take the Redpill. If you think we are going to stand by and watch them be recycled or even let those Redpills fill the ranks of the Machines Army or Cypherite Terrorists, them your more stupid than I thought.

So much for the freedom of choice Zion and EPN are always talking about.  People are free to choose, but only if they pick the 'right' choice.  Who's to say that every bluepill you free will want to stay with the org that extracted them?  Will you keep them imprisoned in New Zion, or will they not be permitted to live?

xenin wrote:

 As for Machinists Leaving Zion and joining The Machines, I don't have a problem with that, so long as they understand that they will be shot on sight and killed.  

Oh wait, you answered my question right there.

Illyria

 Oh look, here comes little Miss Perfect, The Holier Art Than Thou, the self rightchoues moron. You just did what some, if not most, Machinists do. You borrowed some of our quotes, twisted the meaning of the quote, in this case my quotes, and completely ignore whatever Zionites say thereafter.

 Also I prefer you did NOT use my quotes for your Propaganda Machine. This was What I was trying to tell Vinia when she accused me of using supposed Propaganda, Machinists are no different than any other org.

 Also I don't recall wanting your opinion, Cypherite, well your clearly no Machinist because of your attitude. Plus I was talking to Vinia, NEVER You. So kindly *CENSORED* off and get out of my face, you horrid little *CENSORED*.

 ((I would like to point out for legal reasons, that was all RP))

Illyria is as welcome to post here as anyone is, she can also quote anything said by anyone if she wants to. When quoting she didn't alter any of your words, she merely highlighted what you said in the exact same context as you wrote it. If you didn't want her opinion, why post in a public forum?

Plus I said you must have been listening to propaganda or misinformation, I never stated that you were promulgating it intentionally.

As for your disgraceful outburst, I'll let Illyria respond for herself if she chooses to, but I wouldn't blame her if she just laughed and walked off!

 Disgraceful outburst yes I suppose it was. Yet she's a disgrace for endorsing a collection of Homocidal maniacs who kill at the soonest, as is anyone else that does for that matter. Oh did I mention she thinks of us as "Cave Dwelling primitives" which makes her slightly Arrogant as well. I mean let's face it, you Machinists are a collection of Self Rightcheous individuals who think they are better than Zionites and Mervs.

 I could say Zionites are arrogant on occasion, but getting anhiliated by Sentinals, having the Old City destroyed and being attacked just for the reason of existing, really just makes one more humble to the situation. If anyone needs to learn Humility it's you people, biased as this may seem, but The Machines are the one's with all the Big Forces. Let's face it, you won't learn Humility until you know how it feels to be on the verge of defeat.

 ((Again this is all RP, just in case anyone is offended OOC wise.))

Disgraceful outburst yes I suppose it was. Yet she's a disgrace for endorsing a collection of Homocidal maniacs who kill at the soonest, as is anyone else that does for that matter. Oh did I mention she thinks of us as "Cave Dwelling primitives" which makes her slightly Arrogant as well. I mean let's face it, you Machinists are a collection of Self Rightcheous individuals who think they are better than Zionites and Mervs.

 I could say Zionites are arrogant on occasion, but getting anhiliated by Sentinals, having the Old City destroyed and being attacked just for the reason of existing, really just makes one more humble to the situation. If anyone needs to learn Humility it's you people, biased as this may seem, but The Machines are the one's with all the Big Forces. Let's face it, you won't learn Humility until you know how it feels to be on the verge of defeat.

 ((Again this is all RP, just in case anyone is offended OOC wise.))

Where did she endorse a collection of homicidal maniacs? As for what she thinks of you, that's her opinion to which she's perfectly entitled, the same way you are entitled to believe that Machinists are a collection of self righteous individuals.

Arrogance is not a byproduct of being humble in fact it's Human arrogance that precipitated the war in the first place. Also Illyria's humility shines through her final statement. She did not say that she will end the war or be instrumental in its completion, she merely stated her hope for a bright future for all races.

 What Started this War was Fear and Assumptions, not Human Arrogance. Besides which, I don't see how starting another argument about who started the War is going to make a difference, considering that I, and many others, think the Machinists are wrong on who started War and are no longer willing to listen to their arguments on it.

 As for a Better Future, well your going to have to ask the Oracle if it comes true. She thinks everything will turn out for the best and I hope it does.

 Sometimes I think Illyria's thoughts are the precipitation of several arguments.

 ((Lol I just spelt it Homocidal instead of Homicidal on my last post))

 What Started this War was Fear and Assumptions, not Human Arrogance. Besides which, I don't see how starting another argument about who started the War is going to make a difference, considering that I, and many others, think the Machinists are wrong on who started War and are no longer willing to listen to their arguments on it.

 As for a Better Future, well your going to have to ask the Oracle if it comes true. She thinks everything will turn out for the best and I hope it does.

 Sometimes I think Illyria's thoughts are the precipitation of several arguments.

 ((Lol I just spelt it Homocidal instead of Homicidal on my last post))

No, what ended the truce was fear and assumption on both sides, it was Human arrogance that started the war. I'm not intending it to be an argument, the Zion archive file on the second rennaisance shows the arrogance of man. It is that Human arrogance that started the chain of events which caused Human humbleness and since you said that Zionites are still arrogant shows that they haven't learnt from history.

[...] it was Human arrogance that started the war. I'm not intending it to be an argument, the Zion archive file on the second rennaisance shows the arrogance of man. It is that Human arrogance that started the chain of events which caused Human humbleness and since you said that Zionites are still arrogant shows that they haven't learnt from history.

No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?

its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.

Vinia wrote:

No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?

its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?

its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.

So you think that the first Humans would just go along with what the Machines tell them?  When the Machines came to attack the first time, the Human inhabitants of Zion wouldn't have tried to hide their records to be found later on? It's a possibility, sure I can't deny it, but until you have proof that the Archive is a Machine fabrication it is the only reference to the origin of the conflict. Also why doesn't Zion alter it to suggest that the Machine attacked first?

If we are to doubt the only source available then who is to say that Mankind was ever free? Or even indigenous to the planet, we could have been grown in a Machine lab invented to provide the Machines with power...

Yes actully I do, seeings as the Machine has a talent for weaveing and selling very tall tales and makeing people believe what it wants them to. The archive shows nothing more then a black and white history which lets face it, history has never been that black and white.

And why not doubt it? Everything else has been fabricated. Zion's history, fake. Purpose for the pods, fake. First 10-20 years of our lives, fake. The prophacy, fake.

Vinia wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?

its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.

So you think that the first Humans would just go along with what the Machines tell them?  When the Machines came to attack the first time, the Human inhabitants of Zion wouldn't have tried to hide their records to be found later on? It's a possibility, sure I can't deny it, but until you have proof that the Archive is a Machine fabrication it is the only reference to the origin of the conflict. Also why doesn't Zion alter it to suggest that the Machine attacked first?

If we are to doubt the only source available then who is to say that Mankind was ever free? Or even indigenous to the planet, we could have been grown in a Machine lab invented to provide the Machines with power...

Yes actully I do, seeings as the Machine has a talent for weaveing and selling very tall tales and makeing people believe what it wants them to. The archive shows nothing more then a black and white history which lets face it, history has never been that black and white.

And why not doubt it? Everything else has been fabricated. Zion's history, fake. Purpose for the pods, fake. First 10-20 years of our lives, fake. The prophacy, fake.

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?

its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.

So you think that the first Humans would just go along with what the Machines tell them? When the Machines came to attack the first time, the Human inhabitants of Zion wouldn't have tried to hide their records to be found later on? [...] Also why doesn't Zion alter it to suggest that the Machine attacked first?

It's a possibility, sure I can't deny it, but until you have proof that the Archive is a Machine fabrication it is the only reference to the origin of the conflict.

I've not known the Machines to Lie, to make stuff up. Sure they've not provided all of the details for events before and they've kept Humans in the simulation but it's the Humans who convinced themselves its real, the Machines just made a simulation as close to past society as possible and neglected to mention to the masses that it isn't real... but the absence of truth isn't a lie.

[...] but the absence of truth isn't a lie.

It is more likely that, if the Machines did plant the Archive there, it was to make humans realise that their enslavement was brought on by their own actions, and to convince them that the Machine race is superior to the Human race.

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

No I don't know that, where has that been mentioned in cannon?

its indirectly hinted at when the Architect revealed that Zion was rebuilt several times over and the city along with its founders all Machine produced.

So you think that the first Humans would just go along with what the Machines tell them?  When the Machines came to attack the first time, the Human inhabitants of Zion wouldn't have tried to hide their records to be found later on? It's a possibility, sure I can't deny it, but until you have proof that the Archive is a Machine fabrication it is the only reference to the origin of the conflict. Also why doesn't Zion alter it to suggest that the Machine attacked first?

If we are to doubt the only source available then who is to say that Mankind was ever free? Or even indigenous to the planet, we could have been grown in a Machine lab invented to provide the Machines with power...

Yes actully I do, seeings as the Machine has a talent for weaveing and selling very tall tales and makeing people believe what it wants them to. The archive shows nothing more then a black and white history which lets face it, history has never been that black and white.

And why not doubt it? Everything else has been fabricated. Zion's history, fake. Purpose for the pods, fake. First 10-20 years of our lives, fake. The prophacy, fake.

I don't remember the machine telling Zion their history that is done by Human assumption. The purpose for the pods is well known, just because they may not be the only source doesn't mean that they are unneeded. We convinced ourselves that our lives were real, the simulation was there to make us more comfortable we were never specifically told it is real and not a simulation. The prophecy again, depends on how you look at it... there was a man born that could bend the system to his will and that the one will show again. True the rest is Human telling tall tales around the core truth. The Machines give enough true information to let Humankind expand on the truth and believe in something.

As for the archive, it wasn't black and white, Man Vs. Machine. The original machine marches had humans mixed with them. It is more likely that, if the Machines did plant the Archive there, it was to make humans realise that their enslavement was brought on by their own actions, and to convince them that the Machine race is superior to the Human race.

Human assumption set into motion by whom? Every action has a reaction and you don't just start believing something without any reason to do so. As I said the Machine has a talent for what it does and is very good and seemingly eraseing its presence when needed but even so they are very much the one responcible for everyhting we think we know. After all look how much it has benifited them keeping Zion in the dark.

And yes the Archive is very much black and white. Color is only added once you get past the ideas it tries to push and start asking questions. Key elements such as the reasoning for actions or the actions of other groups are left out completly. Notice how there is no mention of any Machine that may have agreed with the ruleing? Or how the only mention of humans that disagreed was in a quick news report? The picture that the Archive paints is that we are to assume that it was simply Man vs Machine. But to give it some credit it does a lovely job (despite popular opinion) of keeping a netural stance and shows both sides flaws equally.

Human assumption set into motion by whom? Every action has a reaction and you don't just start believing something without any reason to do so. As I said the Machine has a talent for what it does and is very good and seemingly eraseing its presence when needed but even so they are very much the one responcible for everyhting we think we know. After all look how much it has benifited them keeping Zion in the dark.

GamiSB wrote:

Human assumption set into motion by whom? Every action has a reaction and you don't just start believing something without any reason to do so. As I said the Machine has a talent for what it does and is very good and seemingly eraseing its presence when needed but even so they are very much the one responcible for everyhting we think we know. After all look how much it has benifited them keeping Zion in the dark.

As I said in order to get someone to think in such a way or to believe in something you only need to give them a tiny bit of information and the truth is easier to seed than a falsehood. Humankind could choose to ignore the information but the mind has to build up around it to try to find more that what is present. It is Mankind's curiosity which sets assumption into motion. The Machines are good at what they do, they understand, albeit in a limited way, how a human mind works and use that knowledge to their advantage, but that doesn't mean that its an outright lie.

Exactly what information is being presented to tell us any different? It wasn't until we started asking that it suddenly became clear and even then we have had to fight tooth and nail to get what little knowledge we have of the truth in the first place. Sorry but everything humanity has been given and told was clearly apart of the machine's control and never intended to be factual in anyway unless it fit into the Machine's plan.

The system even now fights to maintain its lies and anyone who tries to not ignore it is hunted down. Who runs and created the system? The Machine
The prophecy was told to keep us all in line only to lead us to obliteration. Who was it that came up with this idea in the first place? The Machine.

The history of this war is no different then any of these and has no other purpose then to confuse, cover up, and keep Zion in the dark as to what really did happen. Is everything in it bull crap? No idea but given the Machine's current track record it certainly looks like it.

I think we've gotten a little off-track here.  (Not that the current discussion isn't interesting, of course.)  My interest is in what this Zion captain was supposedly doing, which was killing bluepills who either got in his way or who wouldn't choose the red pill. 

Assuming these allegations are true, I am curious.  Did Zion know what he was doing, and if so, did they just look the other way, or did they condone his actions as strikes against the Machines' power source?  (Does Zion still look at the bluepills that aren't candidates for the red pill as enemies, like Morpheus told Neo, because they're still part of the system?)

And if Zion didn't know what this captain had been doing, would he have been subject to disciplinary action once they found out?  Or would Zion not have cared?

Illyria