Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

44 posts · 2007-12-21 23:01:59 to 2008-09-30 00:27:59

#36300374500 12/21/2007 23:01:59 Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

I had to write a paper for my theology class that described three christ-figures in the movies. And I chose Agent Smith as one. Here is that section of my essay. I thought it was pretty interesting, and that you all may like to read it.

--------------------

Another great story of a Christ-figure can be found in The Matrix. Most think that Neo plays the all important role of the Christ-figure. And that Cypher is Judas and Morpheus is John the Baptist. However, there is a different perspective that must be considered when looking at the Matrix. There is a question that must be asked, "What if Smith was the Christ-figure?" This is more than likely possible. Look in the context that surrounds the Matrix. The Matrix is created by the Machines, which makes the Machines God of the world they created. You then have Zion, the fallen ones who rejected what had been given to them and they were disconnected from the source. This can be equated to Lucifer rejecting God's love and chose to reject what God had given him. He chose to leave heaven. This is exactly what we see with the humans that reject the system. They don't want to have any part of what the Machines gave them, and they would rather leave than stay a part of that. Henceforth they are disconnected from the Matrix and disconnected from the creators of it. The Machines once again can be considered Gods of the Matrix.

The Redpill humans, however, can not leave the world alone. They must tempt others to get away from the Matrix, as well. This is just how sin works in the world today. It tempts us to leave the relationship we have with God. Effectively, the Redpills could be considered demons. This is illustrated very well in The Matrix: Reloaded when we see the massive party in the caverns of Zion. The party is very sensual and carnal. It borders on an a mass orgy. All of which clearly represents sin and temptation. What drives homes this image more than anything is the location of this party. Zion is having the party underground in caverns. The caverns are very close to lava and flames. This is how most people imagine Hell. When people envision Hell, they see a fiery place underground filled with lava. Zion clearly represents Hell.

The Machines, in response to the Redpills corrupting those who are still inside of the Matrix, send agents in to the matrix to help keep the human population safe and a way from the bad temptations that are being offered to them by the Redpills. The agents, more than likely, represent prophets that God had sent down to his people. But just as in the Bible, it wasn't enough. Sin continued to grow, and was growing out of control. This could be related to in the Matrix to about the time that Neo showed up. In Reloaded - after Neo was freed - Morpheus said "In the past 6 months we have freed more minds than in 6 years," this could be seen as sin was on the rise and more and more people were turning away from God. So the Machines, like God, had to send their only begotten son in to the world to combat this. Once again this can be related to John 3:16. Of course, in the Matrix the Machine's only begotten son was Smith. Just as Jesus, Smith was feared for what he was doing and was persecuted. Smith was the biggest threat to Zion's efforts for recruiting more Bluepills. Once again, like Jesus, Smith had to combat the evils that were presented before him. This included purging the world of Redpills. In the bible it would be equated to Jesus performing exorcisms to get rid of the demons.

Just as the other Christ-figures, Smith made a sacrifice. It could be argued that it wasn't a conscience decision, but the decision was made to sacrifice himself to get rid of Neo and help protect vasts amounts of Bluepills from being awakened. Smith died so the Bluepills could continue to live in the matrix without the huge threat of being drawn away by Neo. This could have been a decision made by the Machines to use Smith to get rid of Neo. They knew that they would have to sacrifice their son in order to save the matrix and humanity from being ruined. This is just how God knew what would happen to Jesus when he sent him down from heaven. When Smith and Neo died together the Matrix reset. It effectively refreshed the Matrix and gave it a new start. The Machines doing this is like implementing the new and everlasting Covenant. Bluepills were free to leave the matrix and the bond with the Machines, but the Machines gave everyone in the Matrix a fresh start and a new chance. This is exactly what God has done. The Bluepills are free to break away from their pods and their connection to the source. However, when they break away from the pods, they will be going to Zion which is Hell. This is a great analogy for when humans choose to turn a way from God. They go to hell, and hell is most clearly defined as outside of God's love. A person in Hell no longer has a connection to that connection to God. Just as a Redpill has no connection to the source. There is one last sign that we can see that tells us the source and the Machines are good and represent heaven and grace. When Neo looks at the Machine City it is made out of pure light. Pure light is metaphor often used when talking about Heaven and God.


#36300374505 12/21/2007 23:36:24 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
While an unusual and interesting take on the highly interpretable Matrix trilogy, the limited allegory breaks down completely when we consider such aspects as, Christ doesn't copy himself on to others against their will and Christ does not desire the end of all life and Christ did not rebel against God (Smith rebelled against his purpose as defined by his creator.)  So, bravo for breaking new insights as far as they go, but they don't go all that far.  Even those who seek to equate Neo as a Christ figure will encounter difficulty with integrating the Eastern ideas so prevalent in the series.  As before, I suggest that those truly interested in the spiritual aspects of the Matrix trilogy begin their journey at the end, with a translation of the Sanskrit words sung in Neodammerung / Navras, which plays during the final conflict between Neo and Smith and are from the Upanashads of the Vedas.

#36300374611 12/22/2007 08:11:49 Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

Mercio wrote:

You then have Zion, the fallen ones who rejected what had been given to them and they were disconnected from the source. This can be equated to Lucifer rejecting God's love and chose to reject what God had given him. He chose to leave heaven. This is exactly what we see with the humans that reject the system. They don't want to have any part of what the Machines gave them, and they would rather leave than stay a part of that. Henceforth they are disconnected from the Matrix and disconnected from the creators of it.

They would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven. 

Mercio wrote:

The Redpill humans, however, can not leave the world alone. They must tempt others to get away from the Matrix, as well. This is just how sin works in the world today. It tempts us to leave the relationship we have with God. Effectively, the Redpills could be considered demons. This is illustrated very well in The Matrix: Reloaded when we see the massive party in the caverns of Zion. The party is very sensual and carnal. It borders on an a mass orgy. All of which clearly represents sin and temptation. What drives homes this image more than anything is the location of this party. Zion is having the party underground in caverns. The caverns are very close to lava and flames. This is how most people imagine Hell. When people envision Hell, they see a fiery place underground filled with lava. Zion clearly represents Hell.

Especially New Zion.  But I did think of hell when I watched that scene from the first movie.

Lyr

#36300374691 12/22/2007 11:27:12 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

I have thought about Machines such as God, but then again their cons outweigh the pros.

And just as PS10N said, Christ didn't copy himself onto unwilling people.

And Zion gives the choice, such as enlightenment (red), or sleep (blue).

Although, it is an abstract way to view things. In my opinion it is not... well, as practical, but still good job.

#36300374698 12/22/2007 11:48:07 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

You guys are missing the point. It's all in relation. Smith didn't walk on water or make wine out of water either.

It's an interesting point, but although most of your relations are right, the way the movies depict Smith, he's more of the anti-christ, lol.

*edited by admin*
#36300374733 12/22/2007 14:03:42 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
The point isn't being missed.  The allegory fails on direct principles. 

"Whoever believes in me shall not die but have eternal life" vs. "The purpose of life is to end."
"If you Love me, then feed my sheep" vs. "Only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love."

If Smith is Christ, then Neo is the Devil, but nowhere in Christianity is the story of the Devil returning to save God and all of Heaven from being wiped out by Christ, as the story would go in The Matrix.  Smith's final aim was to destroy all life: human (freeborn, redpill, bluepill,) exile and mechanical, which is the exact opposite of a Messianic Redeemer.

Because
there is a great deal of symbolism from all of the world's major belief systems in the Matrix properties, trying to reduce the symbolism to just one of those religions will always fall short; there would always be a deficit of context. Because of two thousand years of conditioning, it's easy to assume that a depiction of an underground cavern with magma and writhing bodies must be a depiction of Hell.  Take the time to learn that Christianity was begun by Hellenistic Jews who rejected the Greek pagan notions of the afterlife, the underworld and the goddess Hel by turning them into the antithesis of their notions of an afterlife for the redeemed.  The historical and contemporary depictions of "the devil" all have their basis in a rejection of pagan Greek archetypes.  The horns, hooves and other bestial features are from Pan, the pitch-fork is Poseidon's trident and ruling the underworld comes from attributes of Hades and Hel.  [There were no historical Saints Bridget or Nicholas, but rather old pagan deities were beatified when it became clear that their veneration would not stop, even after conversion.  Most of the Santa Clause myth, including flying reindeer, a sack full of gifts, the evergreen tree and climbing down the chimney, stems from Nordic rites involving psychedelic mushrooms!]  Equating sensuality and sexuality with sin is equally a control structure of modern organized religion, and another rejection of pagan rites which often involved sexual symbolism or practices.  There are many schools of thought which hold sexuality to be spiritual and even holy, and it's clear that the W. brothers intended this context because the dancing is the continuation of Zion's Holy Rites which all take place in their Temple.  

Getting back to the Matrix' use of varied symbolism, there are references to Christian, Judaic, Islamic, Hindu, Taoist, Zen and Greek ideas.  There are numerous hidden references to specific verses of the Bible, the Quran and the Upanishads in graffiti, license plates and signs.  Trying to interpret the symbolism of the entirety of the Matrix properties within only one spiritual context is doomed to failure.  [Those lucky enough to have the 10-DVD Ultimate Matrix Collection can listen to the commentaries by prominent philosophical figures to gain more insight, including assumptions about duality and the pitfalls of Manachian polarism.]

So, appearances can be deceiving, especially if the context is an assumption.  All subjective truths critically depend on context.
#36300374743 12/22/2007 14:37:53 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Check out the book "The Gospel Reloaded." It's an interesting read if you're into theology at all.

I once was on a mission trip and got a guy's attention with it once down in Panama City Beach. Coincidentally enough, we then departed to the location where we were meeting up with our ride. And as we waited, I noticed there was a place called "The White Rabbit" located across the street. lol
#36300374748 12/22/2007 14:54:11 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

Zion represents religion and freedom, while The Machines (their "spokesman/representative" in the films (despite he is exiled), Smith) represent logic and science.

Atheistic people believe that our only true destiny in life is to end, and as Smith says over and over--it is inevitable. While it is, our choices make us who we are. And thats what seperates the true believers from the systematic thinkers.

#36300374840 12/22/2007 18:18:01 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

Very well thought out. There were more examples to prove it but you made some good points nonetheless. =p

I hope you got a decent grade on it.

#36300374862 12/22/2007 19:11:27 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Jack's Wasted Life wrote:

Very well thought out. There were more examples to prove it but you made some good points nonetheless. =p

I hope you got a decent grade on it.

When I find out, I'll you you all know. SMILEY<img src=

Rarebit wrote:

http://community.livejournal.com/neo_ex_machina/

?

? Are you asking if I have ever heard of it? If so, then no. And if not then, ???.

#36300375933 12/24/2007 23:34:42 Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Very thought-provoking. Especially interesting is the God machines wanting to keep bluepills from acquiring knowledge while the "demons" or redpills try to present knowledge and give the means to awaken. But if Smith were really comparable to Jesus (God 2, or God the Son), would he not have motivated the bluepills, as bluepills, to fight Neo and other redpills? And just what are all the churches for in the Matrix? (hmmm, hidden meanings ...)



I think the fact you flipped God to the other side is a bold take on things. And, yes, you deserve a good grade--
#36300377136 12/28/2007 04:01:44 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

 It is an interesting read, Mercio. First of all, i'm not here to flame on what you wrote. I was just pointing some of my opinion.

One thing about Lucifer is that he did not choose to leave Heaven; he was banished (exiled) by God for his Pride of wanting more power (which could be more related to Agent Smith). We can see from the 'Reloaded' and 'Revolution' that Smith always wanted more Power that even Deus Ex Machinima cannot even control him anymore.  The people of Zion in the movies pretty much signifies the true essence of humanity. They have needs and wants. They also have their faiths and beliefs and doubts.

I'll add more to this as i'm writing this at 4am.


#36300377171 12/28/2007 07:17:55 Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Mercio wrote:

[...] Zion clearly represents Hell. [...]


ACK

#36300377309 12/28/2007 14:06:07 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
In my beliefs God is a robot dolphin unlike the mechanical entities we've seen in the Matrix universe.

Maybe more of an android dolphin.
    "The End is Near, the Time is Now." | W4rbl4de | Reviled Restoration-CYPHERITES
#36300379527 01/01/2008 15:49:30 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
PS10N wrote:
 [Those lucky enough to have the 10-DVD Ultimate Matrix Collection can listen to the commentaries by prominent philosophical figures to gain more insight, including assumptions about duality and the pitfalls of Manachian polarism.]


Yeah those are really good.  The pitfalls of polarism is why I think a lot of people loved the first movie and hated or were confused by the sequels.  The first movie is pure dualism and easy to understand:  Man good, Machines evil.  It's also a pitfall of what one sees first in Gnosticism, ie.  the world is a corrupt illusion with no redeeming qualities, but that's only the early stage of Gnostic awakening.  The second & third movie shows it's much more complicated than that, and simple duality is "just another form of control."

Another minor point of contention with Cornell and the other guy is they say that love is also dualistic:   love for humanity (Agape) vs. love for the flesh (Eros).  In fact, both are impersonal, and a reaction against those two impersonal forms of loves comes a third type of love (Amor) which is specific, individual love of a person for that person, which came about in Medieval times first manifesting themselves in the Arthurian Romances and progressing from there (or not SMILEY )

#36300441648 04/13/2008 18:06:26 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

the essay rarebit pointed out http://community.livejournal.com/ne...893.html#cutid1

was magnificient, but this one... being as narrowminded as peter and paul is the reason the church commited so many atrocities in history in the name of christ...

and thats the saddest thing about it, how greed intolerence and narrowmindedness twisted holy words into a system of spiritual and psychological control.

jesus told them not to judge, yet they judge sinners without looking out for their own sins... burned them at the stakes... self-rightous hypocrites... false prophets... making millions out of people's faith.

of course nothing is perfect in this world and no one is without flaws. i guess this means these flaws have purpose and striving for perfection gives meaning to existance... othervise there is only... nothingness... no reason for mouvement to exist and everything would be perfectly predictable, just like the machine world...

but feeling and choice, freewill is an unpredictable element in the equation that is the universe. and from that unpredictable element can be born, creativity...

reason ennough for the machines to let the humans live, to learn from them. but as they learn from them they begin to mimic them so they can understand them...

some programs embrace their newfound feelings, like sati's parents and sati herself or the oracle, and some programs ashamed of their feelings react to it with hate, like smith. the personnification of the universal drive to return to nothingness, to non-mouvement and non-life. present in all sentient bings and knows as the death drive... ( see freud and jung )

the death drive is so strong and powerfull backed up by the apearent innevitability of death only hope can preserve us from its self-destructing power ( like giving us suicidal impulses ) without hope only the death drive remains... the desire to die.

in us two wolves a black one and a white one, the strongest will be the one you feed the most.

cilar

#36300441682 04/13/2008 19:50:28 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
So what was the grade?

And another similarity...

Don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge (take the red pill)

Guys, now we gotta fix stuff! /sigh...

Only a simple test, failed.
#36300442021 04/14/2008 11:43:50 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

What a twisting mind**** on what I have interpreted from the trilogy over the last 9 years! /applause Mercio

Just reading the subject line I was going into the thread with reservations but tried to remain openminded after your blurb about the paper. Though fundamentally flawed by some points touched on my Ps10n in his first post, suspension of disbelief will lead to a greater appreciation for your OP.

This post has been edited because the poster circumvented the profanity filter. -Jury

#36300442147 04/14/2008 15:39:06 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
TimeMaker wrote:
So what was the grade?

And another similarity...

Don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge (take the red pill)

Guys, now we gotta fix stuff! /sigh...

Only a simple test, failed.

So if the redpill symbolizes the apple..in theory who would've been the first female to eat it? Has it been mentioned or have I failed to see it?
#36300442257 04/14/2008 20:59:06 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
I'm just generalizing, I don' think matrix lore actually says who the first female was... but as a test to all humans, not just the first two, don't eat from the friggian tree!
#36300442329 04/15/2008 04:21:37 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

jesus told them not to judge, yet they judge sinners without looking out for their own sins... burned them at the stakes... self-rightous hypocrites... false prophets... making millions out of people's faith.

Just a side note, but you do realize that the old testament advocates cruel death punishments for stuff like disobedience, adultery etc.?

#36300442614 04/15/2008 14:22:53 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Umm...honestly I think this is a really bad interpretation.  The idea of machines as God is good and the bluepills being little inhabitants and redpills being the deviants that screw everything up (this is one idea behind machinist ideology in MXO is it not?), but Smith as Jesus is terrible.  Firstly there were several agents that performed the same function as Smith, so you'd have to take that into account.  Secondly, Smith wanted to get out of the Matrix because he hated it.  I don't remember Jesus capturing a demon and begging him for information on how to get into hell (Smith-Morpheus).  Smith promised an end, while Jesus promises everlasting life.  Smith rebelled against his masters as mentioned.

I don't see Smith as an evil character though.  While it's easy to say Neo represents Jesus and Smith the devil, I'm not a fan of strict dualism like that (which is why I like serving the machines in MXO)  I think when deciding who is good and bad, you have to look at Plato's allegory of the cave (although a bit tweaked in the case of the machines).  It is painfully obvious that The Matrix is an updated form of the allegory of the cave.  From that interpretation, if we can somehow imagine that the machines have good reason to hold the humans, then Smith is in fact a good guy and the redpills are the evil deviants that should  be destroyed, especially when they try to make other deviants.
#36300442852 04/16/2008 00:24:21 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
I don't remember Jesus capturing a demon and begging him for information on how to get into hell (Smith-Morpheus). 

I would be rather capturing a demon forcing him to tell how to destroy hell so he could return to heaven (machine city, not zion - both places outside the world, light and stuff), but yea, didn't happen.
#36300443166 04/16/2008 14:02:12 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
TimeMaker wrote:
So what was the grade?


I got a 49/50 on the project. Which is a solid A.

#36300443660 04/17/2008 09:07:43 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Mercio wrote:
TimeMaker wrote:
So what was the grade?


I got a 49/50 on the project. Which is a solid A.

But it wasn't a 50 was it?! *slap*

NO SCHNAPPS FOR YOU
#36300444416 04/18/2008 20:08:21 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
TheShickle wrote:

Zion represents religion and freedom, while The Machines (their "spokesman/representative" in the films (despite he is exiled), Smith) represent logic and science.

Atheistic people believe that our only true destiny in life is to end, and as Smith says over and over--it is inevitable. While it is, our choices make us who we are. And thats what seperates the true believers from the systematic thinkers.

This is very true the only time religion comes from the film is from Zion BUT if you look at it The Machines think they are god but until Neo comes along and thats when it all kicks off...


#36300449231 04/30/2008 15:17:34 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
KillLegends wrote:
TheShickle wrote:

Zion represents religion and freedom, while The Machines (their "spokesman/representative" in the films (despite he is exiled), Smith) represent logic and science.

Atheistic people believe that our only true destiny in life is to end, and as Smith says over and over--it is inevitable. While it is, our choices make us who we are. And thats what seperates the true believers from the systematic thinkers.

This is very true the only time religion comes from the film is from Zion BUT if you look at it The Machines think they are god but until Neo comes along and thats when it all kicks off...



 Interesting. So if Zion represents Religion and Freedom and the Machines represent Logic and Science, what does the Merovingian and his organisation represent?
#36300449268 04/30/2008 16:01:11 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
xenin wrote:
KillLegends wrote:
TheShickle wrote:

Zion represents religion and freedom, while The Machines (their "spokesman/representative" in the films (despite he is exiled), Smith) represent logic and science.

Atheistic people believe that our only true destiny in life is to end, and as Smith says over and over--it is inevitable. While it is, our choices make us who we are. And thats what seperates the true believers from the systematic thinkers.

This is very true the only time religion comes from the film is from Zion BUT if you look at it The Machines think they are god but until Neo comes along and thats when it all kicks off...



 Interesting. So if Zion represents Religion and Freedom and the Machines represent Logic and Science, what does the Merovingian and his organisation represent?
umm lets go with "temptation" and... "pleasure" if you know what I mean.
#36300449439 04/30/2008 21:30:00 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Mercio wrote:
TimeMaker wrote:
So what was the grade?

I got a 49/50 on the project. Which is a solid A.

What did you lose a point for?  (Personally I would've corrected your grammar with a red pen ;) )
#36300449450 04/30/2008 22:38:11 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
xenin wrote:
KillLegends wrote:
TheShickle wrote:

Zion represents religion and freedom, while The Machines (their "spokesman/representative" in the films (despite he is exiled), Smith) represent logic and science.

Atheistic people believe that our only true destiny in life is to end, and as Smith says over and over--it is inevitable. While it is, our choices make us who we are. And thats what seperates the true believers from the systematic thinkers.

This is very true the only time religion comes from the film is from Zion BUT if you look at it The Machines think they are god but until Neo comes along and thats when it all kicks off...



 Interesting. So if Zion represents Religion and Freedom and the Machines represent Logic and Science, what does the Merovingian and his organisation represent?

I really think it is critical to understand the Gnostic Christian influence of the trilogy.  The first movie is a simple dualistic Gnostic tale.  The observable world around us is False.  There is a Higher Reality that one must attain to escape its prison.  This is an old old story but buried for a very long time by orthodox Christianity in its early years.  But Gnosticim is complicated, and I will have to repost another time on the subject (I will get to the Merovingian).  In the meantime, here is a pretty decent explanation.  See if any of this sounds familiar:


"All religious traditions acknowledge that the world is imperfect. Where they differ is in the explanations which they offer to account for this imperfection and in what they suggest might be done about it. Gnostics have their own -- perhaps quite startling -- view of these matters: they hold that the world is flawed because it was created in a flawed manner.

Like Buddhism, Gnosticism begins with the fundamental recognition that earthly life is filled with suffering. In order to nourish themselves, all forms of life consume each other, thereby visiting pain, fear, and death upon one another (even herbivorous animals live by destroying the life of plants). In addition, so-called natural catastrophes -- earthquakes, floods, fires, drought, volcanic eruptions -- bring further suffering and death in their wake. Human beings, with their complex physiology and psychology, are aware not only of these painful features of earthly existence. They also suffer from the frequent recognition that they are strangers living in a world that is flawed and absurd.

Many religions advocate that humans are to be blamed for the imperfections of the world. Supporting this view, they interpret the Genesis myth as declaring that transgressions committed by the first human pair brought about a "fall" of creation resulting in the present corrupt state of the world. Gnostics respond that this interpretation of the myth is false. The blame for the world's failings lies not with humans, but with the creator. Since -- especially in the monotheistic religions -- the creator is God, this Gnostic position appears blasphemous, and is often viewed with dismay even by non-believers.

Ways of evading the recognition of the flawed creation and its flawed creator have been devised over and over, but none of these arguments have impressed Gnostics. The ancient Greeks, especially the Platonists, advised people to look to the harmony of the universe, so that by venerating its grandeur they might forget their immediate afflictions. But since this harmony still contains the cruel flaws, forlornness and alienation of existence, this advice is considered of little value by Gnostics. Nor is the Eastern idea of Karma regarded by Gnostics as an adequate explanation of creation's imperfection and suffering. Karma at best can only explain how the chain of suffering and imperfection works. It does not inform us in the first place why such a sorrowful and malign system should exist.

Once the initial shock of the "unusual" or "blasphemous" nature of the Gnostic explanation for suffering and imperfection of the world wears off, one may begin to recognize that it is in fact the most sensible of all explanations.

....

Human nature mirrors the duality found in the world: in part it was made by the false creator God and in part it consists of the light of the True God. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the "divine spark". The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of "dualist".

Humans are generally ignorant of the divine spark resident within them. This ignorance is fostered in human nature by the influence of the false creator and his Archons, who together are intent upon keeping men and women ignorant of their true nature and destiny. Anything that causes us to remain attached to earthly things serves to keep us in enslavement to these lower cosmic rulers....

Not all humans are spiritual (pneumatics) and thus ready for Gnosis and liberation. Some are earthbound and materialistic beings (hyletics), who recognize only the physical reality...."


Anyways it goes on but I'll post more on the topic another time when I'm less tired.

#36300463222 06/03/2008 15:48:49 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Well we can say there is gnostic influence on the films, but we can actually trace the influence further back to Plato.  While gnosticism didn't stem from Plato, it certainly was related.  Specifically, gnosticism and the works of Plotinus are extremely similar, though I don't think either influenced the other...actually I'm not sure about that.  I think gnosticism had its roots right before or around the same time as Plotinus and once his works were read Gnosticism really took off.  I could be wrong about all that though...gah, time to go read my old class notes.
#36300463588 06/04/2008 13:51:00 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
GypsyJuggler wrote:
Mercio wrote:
TimeMaker wrote:
So what was the grade?

I got a 49/50 on the project. Which is a solid A.

What did you lose a point for?  (Personally I would've corrected your grammar with a red pen SMILEY )

I'm not sure. I think it's because he doesn't want anyone to get a perfect. In fact, I, as well as about 50% of the rest of the people in my grade, thinks he just BS'd the last two quarters and wrote down random grades for everyone.
#36300464928 06/07/2008 08:45:14 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
In all truth, you did deserve that good grade, your views on the subject were simply outstanding. I'd be baffled if I was your teacher... I'd have my mouth open for about 5 minutes and then go watch the matrix again SMILEY
#36300471065 06/25/2008 16:06:17 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

I'd have to root around for the links, but a fellow named Stephen Faller wrote a series of short articles entitled something like "The Passion of Neo", in which he basically said the role of the savior isn't so clear cut as a a cursory viewing of the trilogy would suggest.* I've seen elements of the Christ/Messiah figure in several characters, not just Neo. Some see the image of God reflected in the Oracle. It's a matter of "freeing your mind" from previous conceptions of who would fit what role. It's easy to make this sort of standard assumption:

Neo = Christ
Smith = Anti-Christ
The Merovingian = the Devil

But it's more of a challenge to see the sparks and flashs of the potential for redemption or perdition in each and every one of the characters. And that's what sucked me into this universe so thoroughly...

*And here are the links via an old journal entry of mine: http://matrixrefugee.livejournal.com/79135.html

#36300471082 06/25/2008 16:37:09 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
MatrixRefugee wrote:

I'd have to root around for the links, but a fellow named Stephen Faller wrote a series of short articles entitled something like "The Passion of Neo", in which he basically said the role of the savior isn't so clear cut as a a cursory viewing of the trilogy would suggest.* I've seen elements of the Christ/Messiah figure in several characters, not just Neo. Some see the image of God reflected in the Oracle. It's a matter of "freeing your mind" from previous conceptions of who would fit what role. It's easy to make this sort of standard assumption:

Neo = Christ
Smith = Anti-Christ
The Merovingian = the Devil

But it's more of a challenge to see the sparks and flashs of the potential for redemption or perdition in each and every one of the characters. And that's what sucked me into this universe so thoroughly...

*And here are the links via an old journal entry of mine: http://matrixrefugee.livejournal.com/79135.html

That's an excellent point and I'm lad to see it pointed out on this thread.  I roll my eyes when I hear people say Neo is Christ and The Merovingian is the Devil; using Club Hel, Neo's death and ressurection as proof, etc.

I looked into a revisionist perspective on The Merovingian a couple years ago and built a thread on it, and have come to some interesting counterintuitive ideas.  But placing things in simple balck and white, good and evil compartments is a fallacy.  The first movie has a simple dualistic theme, man is good / machines are evil.  But the second one really breaks down that simple structure, losing a lot of people, but not those of us who like to think beyond simple dualism.

#36300471134 06/25/2008 19:56:41 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Villemar_MxO wrote:
MatrixRefugee wrote:

I'd have to root around for the links, but a fellow named Stephen Faller wrote a series of short articles entitled something like "The Passion of Neo", in which he basically said the role of the savior isn't so clear cut as a a cursory viewing of the trilogy would suggest.* I've seen elements of the Christ/Messiah figure in several characters, not just Neo. Some see the image of God reflected in the Oracle. It's a matter of "freeing your mind" from previous conceptions of who would fit what role. It's easy to make this sort of standard assumption:

Neo = Christ
Smith = Anti-Christ
The Merovingian = the Devil

But it's more of a challenge to see the sparks and flashs of the potential for redemption or perdition in each and every one of the characters. And that's what sucked me into this universe so thoroughly...

*And here are the links via an old journal entry of mine: http://matrixrefugee.livejournal.com/79135.html

That's an excellent point and I'm lad to see it pointed out on this thread.  I roll my eyes when I hear people say Neo is Christ and The Merovingian is the Devil; using Club Hel, Neo's death and ressurection as proof, etc.

I looked into a revisionist perspective on The Merovingian a couple years ago and built a thread on it, and have come to some interesting counterintuitive ideas.  But placing things in simple balck and white, good and evil compartments is a fallacy.  The first movie has a simple dualistic theme, man is good / machines are evil.  But the second one really breaks down that simple structure, losing a lot of people, but not those of us who like to think beyond simple dualism.

Mmm, one seemingly small detail in Revs made me realize the Merv certainly isn't the demonic figure too many people purport him to be. Compare the cut of Neo's jacket in the Mobile Ave. scene with the Merv's frock-coat jacket in Reloaded. Then compare Neo's cassock-coat in Reloaded with the Merv's coat in the Club Hel scene. Yeah, on the surface, it's an interesting wardrobe quirk, but it made me realize that if you look at things from the Exiles' POV, the Merv is a savior to many of them, while the One has been a threat to them, what with the cycle of reloads that has cut into their numbers...
#36300471156 06/25/2008 21:05:20 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
MatrixRefugee wrote:
Villemar_MxO wrote:
MatrixRefugee wrote:

I'd have to root around for the links, but a fellow named Stephen Faller wrote a series of short articles entitled something like "The Passion of Neo", in which he basically said the role of the savior isn't so clear cut as a a cursory viewing of the trilogy would suggest.* I've seen elements of the Christ/Messiah figure in several characters, not just Neo. Some see the image of God reflected in the Oracle. It's a matter of "freeing your mind" from previous conceptions of who would fit what role. It's easy to make this sort of standard assumption:

Neo = Christ
Smith = Anti-Christ
The Merovingian = the Devil

But it's more of a challenge to see the sparks and flashs of the potential for redemption or perdition in each and every one of the characters. And that's what sucked me into this universe so thoroughly...

*And here are the links via an old journal entry of mine: http://matrixrefugee.livejournal.com/79135.html

That's an excellent point and I'm lad to see it pointed out on this thread.  I roll my eyes when I hear people say Neo is Christ and The Merovingian is the Devil; using Club Hel, Neo's death and ressurection as proof, etc.

I looked into a revisionist perspective on The Merovingian a couple years ago and built a thread on it, and have come to some interesting counterintuitive ideas.  But placing things in simple balck and white, good and evil compartments is a fallacy.  The first movie has a simple dualistic theme, man is good / machines are evil.  But the second one really breaks down that simple structure, losing a lot of people, but not those of us who like to think beyond simple dualism.

Mmm, one seemingly small detail in Revs made me realize the Merv certainly isn't the demonic figure too many people purport him to be. Compare the cut of Neo's jacket in the Mobile Ave. scene with the Merv's frock-coat jacket in Reloaded. Then compare Neo's cassock-coat in Reloaded with the Merv's coat in the Club Hel scene. Yeah, on the surface, it's an interesting wardrobe quirk, but it made me realize that if you look at things from the Exiles' POV, the Merv is a savior to many of them, while the One has been a threat to them, what with the cycle of reloads that has cut into their numbers...

Yeah.  I've felt that as Neo was an instrument of humans' awakening into self-awareness via the red pill, The Merovingian was the agent of programs awakening into self awareness and as such has a very imporant role.  They are buth gnostic guides of a sort.

#36300487787 08/11/2008 17:30:45 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

You got a 49/50, which honestly doesn't surprise me, because you're obviously educated and you're very thought provoking. I am almost certain however, that while points were awarded for "making up your own mind", as the Oracle puts it (The profanity filter objects to the missing word from that sentence? Precisely how inoffensive are we trying to be here?!?!?!), they weren't for the actual bones of your argument.

 I am no psychologist and I don't know you from Adam, so all of the following is pure speculation, but I'm guessing you're ardently religious and find the idea of free sexuality to be "sinful". Trying to place a Christ mask on Smith is probably the most mind-bending interpretation of the Matrix I've ever known and is, in my single opinion, driven by your religious attitude finding images of people being freely sexual as sinful. So powerfully is the idea of sin being equated to sexuality nailed into your mind that anything that stands against it (Smith in this case) must therefore be Christ-like, no matter how much of a raving, psychopathic nutter he is.

 I find that desperately sad and extremely worrying. Being so fixated on polarising humanity into pigeon holes labelled "sinful" and "pure" that you'd view the most obvious Satan analogy in cinematic history (with the possible exception of Lord Voldemort) as Christ-like, shows one thing very clearly...

The Matrix has you.

And Zion is equated to Hell because it's underground? No, I don't accept that and think it's just a coincidence that you've pounded on to bolster a very weak argument. I think it would be monumentally stupid for humanity to have their sanctuary on the surface of the earth or up in the clouds. The only place it makes any kind of sense whatsoever to have it, is protected within the earth itself. Sure, The Matrix continuity does stretch the bounds of credulity very far, but there's only so far one can go before suspension of disbelief fails completely.

#36300487802 08/11/2008 18:33:27 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
Errr... I suggest you keep reading the thread and some of the other entries that popped up, particularly one above where I posted a link to Stephen Faller's articles: he's more inclined to look at the potential for redemption or perdition in each of the characters than to ascribe quick labels to them.
#36300488136 08/12/2008 17:33:38 Re:Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
MatrixRefugee wrote:
Errr... I suggest you keep reading the thread and some of the other entries that popped up, particularly one above where I posted a link to Stephen Faller's articles: he's more inclined to look at the potential for redemption or perdition in each of the characters than to ascribe quick labels to them.











I'm not clever enough to understand the context of what you just said, so I doubt I'd get anything out of Stephen Faller. You may very well be right, but I doubt I'd understand it.







I may take a wild stab in the dark though and suggest that while Faller may be exactly as you describe, I don't think the original poster is. My comments apply only to their interpretation as Smith being emblematic of Christ, nothing else. My personal view, as you may have guessed, is that religion = blue pill. Most people will probably disagree with me.
#36300503451 09/26/2008 12:38:17 Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure

i know of this story, only through the study of music theory, so keep in mind, its just a story.

the world can not exist in perfection. perfection leaves no room for growth or movement, and will instantly vanish. this is true in music, without flats, sharps, thirds, ect, ect, music does nothing.

the good lord learned this first hand. his desire to create was for his entertainment, and his first creations of the world where perfection, and instantly vanished. they could not exist. he needed some way to disrupt the perfection.

so he goes to his good friend Lucifer and asks him to unbalance his perfect balance (read that right: god requested a devil. the 2 are to work in unison against each other.... for entertainment).

this story then moves on the explain the 6th interval of a major scale, also known as 'the diablo en musica' or 'the devils note'.

what i found interesting was the relationship between the architect and the oracle to be almost exactly like the one between the lord and his devil.

i also like the phrase 'if neo was the one, smith is the negative one, and together they equal zero'.

food for thought, if nothing more.

#36300504523 09/30/2008 00:27:59 Re:Re:Agent Smith as a Christ-figure
pESt wrote:

i know of this story, only through the study of music theory, so keep in mind, its just a story.

the world can not exist in perfection. perfection leaves no room for growth or movement, and will instantly vanish. this is true in music, without flats, sharps, thirds, ect, ect, music does nothing.

the good lord learned this first hand. his desire to create was for his entertainment, and his first creations of the world where perfection, and instantly vanished. they could not exist. he needed some way to disrupt the perfection.

so he goes to his good friend Lucifer and asks him to unbalance his perfect balance (read that right: god requested a devil. the 2 are to work in unison against each other.... for entertainment).

this story then moves on the explain the 6th interval of a major scale, also known as 'the diablo en musica' or 'the devils note'.

what i found interesting was the relationship between the architect and the oracle to be almost exactly like the one between the lord and his devil.

i also like the phrase 'if neo was the one, smith is the negative one, and together they equal zero'.

food for thought, if nothing more.


Interesting post.

I've thought about the Matrix and its relationship to Christianity long and hard, and I have to say that I don't think it's a parable of that religion, nor is it meant to be. There is just simply too much information and too many concepts.

The obvious equivalent of God in the films is the Architect (any Freemasons out there?). I can't reconcile the attitude of the Architect to humanity (worthless, illogical lumps of meat, that he would have liked to see extinct, were it not that the Machines needed them for power) with that of a loving creator who, more than anything, wants to see his creations transcend the concepts of badness and sin and become as "like unto Him" as a human is capable of being.

No, I think there's an awful lot more, although those who want to believe it is soley about one thing or another will see only that one thing.