This isn't 1999.

I find this to be highly implausible and really wish it hadn't gone that way.

Tygrius wrote:

MxO-PhanthomZtryker wrote:

Vesuveus wrote:

2007 in The Matrix, closer to 2207 in the Real.

Don't you mean 3007?
I think he said 1999 was 2999.

actually it was said to be closer to 2199...."I cant tell you the real date because honestly, I dont know."

Also, one thing you have to ask about that scene from the animatrix....was that an event of the matrix we know? or a past version?  That could very well of happened somewhere towards the end of the 4th or 5th version and merely be more of an "historical document" to show the machines methods of purging anomolies.

2199 is not plausible. 7 iterations of the Matrix. Besides, 1999 is when AI was CREATED. There's the time between creation and the Matrix.

PS10N wrote:

BAD Ideas that are NOT in the movies but have stunk their way in to MxO canon:

1) It's always 1999 in the Matrix.
2) The Matrix is only a big city and a surrounding mountain range.
3) Morpheus found five "failed Ones" before finding Neo.

And before I get jumped (again) for #3 because "it's in the original script:"  it was in the script and was not shot in to the movie because it was a BAD IDEA that they REJECTED.  Going thru old movie scripts to find things that were not used in order to show that they were "real" is pretty flawed.  The early scripts of "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" don't include Spock's death so, following the same logic as those who are whining "but it's in the script they didn't use!" then Spock didn't die in Wrath of Khan, either, even tho that's what everyone saw on the screen.  The W Bros re-used the concept of "five previous Ones" in Reloaded, so throwing it back on top of the present cycle makes no sense and is the equivalent of eating thrown away food out of garbage bin.  They threw it out because it was bad - why are you so eager to eat it up?

Seriously, PS10N, why is it so hard for you to conceive of the plausability that Morpheus, in his zealousness to fulfill his destiny, jumped to the conclusion that he had found "The One" when all he had really found was another average Joe. It's not that far out of a concept. But anyways, while we're on the continuity train...something that's always bugged me...

Why is it Mega City when this states otherwise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_%28The_Matrix%29

Wikipedia also says that a Matrix Online player on Vector is the Runner from the Animatrix that was reprogrammed.

No way. WHERE?!?!

If that is true, it will make my day. Because that will be the funniest *CENSORED* thing I'll have heard all day.

Zerotolerance wrote:

Wikipedia also says that a Matrix Online player on Vector is the Runner from the Animatrix that was reprogrammed.

No way. WHERE?!?!

If that is true, it will make my day. Because that will be the funniest *CENSORED* thing I'll have heard all day.

Anyways, the concept of "it's always 1999" is for us inplausible. The only way to achieve that is to modify ALL dates that run through the system (including memories) when the Matrix hits 31st December 1999 23:59:59. The problem the Machines face is that they don't allow humans to develop technology, that's why they need to freeze that development when it occurs. Well, why would that involve the date you say? Because humans would wonder about the technological development over the last years (from 1999 to today) and compare them with the development from before 1999 (which is data planted from the Machines anyway).


Also, saying that it's always to be 1999, who said that in the movies? As far as I can recall from the movies, it was only modeled after the human civilisation from 1999.

=/

Meh, I'm not too concerned about the 1999 thing, and can suspend my disbelief in order to continue the game without interuption. (heh, see what I did there?)

The story was already leaning this way, ambiguously leaving it "up in the air" in the first film. After Smith's explanation, what else could it be but a deliberate time loop. There were also some nods in this direction coming from the comics and the Animatrix, I think. Someone else will have to cite it though; I'm too lazy to look it up. heh

As far as a function of the plot, however, this "perpetual 1999" notion is much more powerful. The idea that the Machines feel they can stop time and subvert change is necessary to show their weakness. Think about it for a sec, if the Machines were perfect in 100% of their solutions, there would be no story. Everyone knows that Time cannot be stopped, and Change is inevitable. This serves to empower the protagonist(s) as the instrument of Change for the good of Natural Balance. 

Hmm. . .this leads me to a new line of thinking, though. In today's Matrix story, who are the true protagonists?

Looking for a pro- and an-tagonist, you've fallen in the pitfall of Manachian polarization, the illusion that is duality. 

Looking for a pro- and an-tagonist, you've fallen in the pitfall of Manachian polarization, the illusion that is duality. 

Not I, my friend. That debate about this story precedes my involvement by several years.

But, for the sake of argument, let's put the philisophical aside (I know, dichotomic, at best.). The story of the Matrix has, heretofore, demanded a protagonist and, conversely, an antagonist.

Who has assumed these roles in today's story?

Looking for a pro- and an-tagonist, you've fallen in the pitfall of Manachian polarization, the illusion that is duality. 

That hardly made any sense, actually.

Duality in science is real. Duality in the mind/body is something that is up for debate - some believe that one can be controlled by the other.

Spiritual duality is also up for debate and I think that's the one you're referring to. Those who believe that if good exists there must also be evil, and vice-versa. Although you don't necessarily need to look at it from a spiritual standpoint, to some degree there is truth behind the concept of duality. Perceiving it to be false, rejecting it entirely for its core meaning, is a rather inexperienced conclusion. There's a balance of good and evil, positive and negative, compassion and hatred, in the world and within each and every person. Some are simply imbalanced. Although you can also view things as subjective, there's many moral concepts that anyone can embrace that have little or nothing to do with spiritual duality.

Some have a capacity to be wreckless.
Some are mindful of the world around them.
Both have varying capacities within the individual.

...who are the true protagonists?

Not sure why this 'always 1999' idea is still being toyed with, but it's the right here and now inside the matrix, that is to say, it's December 2007, and in the real world, it's approximately 2207.   The Animatrix confirms that, and this game doesn't change that.  Operating systems don't determine time and date (try reloading your own OS for a better understanding). 

Besides, it doesn't make sense to expect blue pills to accept that every few years it's 1999 all over again, despite the fact that their RSI's are many years older and they still have the memories of everything that had already happened.  Their minds aren't being reloaded, just the environment.   It's like jacking into MxO tomorrow and everything that had happened over the past 3 years had suddenly reverted to the launch state.

Besides, it doesn't make sense to expect blue pills to accept that every few years it's 1999 all over again, despite the fact that their RSI's are many years older and they still have the memories of everything that had already happened.  Their minds aren't being reloaded, just the environment.   It's like jacking into MxO tomorrow and everything that had happened over the past 3 years had suddenly reverted to the launch state.

Quote:

"The matrix cannot tell you who you are."

I can't help the fact that MxO's story is full of holes and contradictions, but trying to defend one erroneous element of it with another doesn't work. I realize users have heavily invested themselves in this game and have forced themselves to rationalize a lot of inconsistencies as a result, but you simply can not edit/alter/whatever people's minds, you can only edit/alter/whatever the environment. Slow down and think about what is being implied; if minds could be edited, the machines would have the means to effectively prevent them from ever awakening. In the same way that reloading Windows doesn't alter your mother board, reloading the matrix doesn't alter your mind. Physically mucking around with the brain also adulterates its ability to accept the simulation by choice to begin with.

The bluepill aftermath of the Smith business was resolved when the Oracle asked Archie "what about the others, the ones that want out?", clearly indicating that there would be a surge of minds ready to awaken as a direct result of the incident. Otherwise there would be no point in her asking such a question. Bluepills weren't any more aware of the truce than they were of the war, so why else would any of them suddenly "want out"? The remainder would write it off as a dream or whatnot, same way they've (read: we've) dealt with everything else in life that doesn't jibe.

Btw Whereabouts in the Animatrix does it confirm that it's approx. 2207 in the real?

"Beyond" specifically shows a time stamp in a scan log from 2003 (when it was released), confirming that the simulation continues to progress in traditionally measured time beyond 1999, so we can roughly calculate the real world time based on the estimated year analogous to the trace logs from 1999 displayed in the first Matrix, "closer to 2199" + 8 years + x months + x days etc.

Btw Whereabouts in the Animatrix does it confirm that it's approx. 2207 in the real?

"Beyond" specifically shows a time stamp in a scan log from 2003 (when it was released), confirming that the simulation continues to progress in traditionally measured time beyond 1999, so we can roughly calculate the real world time based on the estimated year analogous to the trace logs from 1999 displayed in the first Matrix, "closer to 2199" + 8 years + x months + x days etc.

[Current date] = [End of the War] + [[Morpheus' guess] - [End of the War]]*[# of iterations] + [Some time for the first two failed versions]

So let's say:
2100 + (2199-2100)*6 + 50 = about 2750 at the very least. Using very conservative estimates, of course

Hmm, I would say your estimate is not conservative enough, Vinia, with respect to the first two failures. I can't imagine that it took 50 years for those two iterations to fail and be discarded, especially since the Machines were losing "entire crops" of people. I'd say that 10 years is more like it, for both iterations to try, fail, try again, fail and be discarded.

For Stewie, your penchant for ignoring Rarebit's creative direction aside, I don't understand why this is a difficult concept to accept? I mean, if one can accept the ability for the remainder of the human race to be living in a dream world, why can't one accept the simple measure the Machines take to make sure that society doesn't progress?

The Live Event with Tick-Tock showed us that each year, the Machines change everything to make it 1999 again. They make everything that happened in 1999v.103 appear to have happened in 1998, and everything that had appeared to happen in 1998, gets changed to appear as though it had happened in 1997. Then they begin again with 1999v.104. 

The Live Event with Digger showed us that the Machines went to great lengths to change the order of Creator/created and shows what would happen if time were allowed to advance in the simulation.  

Finally, the Merv missions from 8.3 ["The Disputed Death of Mary MacHenry", "Séance", and "Unplugged"] tell the story of Mary Machenry and how she came to be unplugged from the system. During the missions, you learn that Mary's mom had her memory altered so that she remembers the event surrounding her daughter's "death" differently than what actually occurred.

All of these elements, put together, add up to a system that can perpetually hold time in place by altering the Matrix itself and the memories of bluepills, and even provides a reason why. Can't ask for much more than that in a fictional story, now can we? 

The plain, sad truth is that the world of the Matrix Online was poorly prepared for actual war, which has been proven by the oh-so-coincidental appearance and distraction of the Intruder. Call me a skeptic, but if the Intruder never popped up, the war thing probably would have gotten really really old rather rapidly. After all, it's clear that the Machines could quickly win a war if they pooled all their resources and tactical abilities. And then there's the question of why we're even fighting. But that's not really a story question, now, is it?

But Zip, you're assuming that the Intruder has nothing to do with the war. . .

Recent events have led me to believe that he is here because of the war, and that we better start warming up to him real quick. . .

Zerotolerance wrote:

That hardly made any sense, actually.

Duality in science is real. Duality in the mind/body is something that is up for debate - some believe that one can be controlled by the other.

Spiritual duality is also up for debate and I think that's the one you're referring to. Those who believe that if good exists there must also be evil, and vice-versa. Although you don't necessarily need to look at it from a spiritual standpoint, to some degree there is truth behind the concept of duality. Perceiving it to be false, rejecting it entirely for its core meaning, is a rather inexperienced conclusion. There's a balance of good and evil, positive and negative, compassion and hatred, in the world and within each and every person. Some are simply imbalanced. Although you can also view things as subjective, there's many moral concepts that anyone can embrace that have little or nothing to do with spiritual duality.

Some have a capacity to be wreckless.
Some are mindful of the world around them.
Both have varying capacities within the individual.

Didn't make sense to whom?  I'm sorry that you didn't understand.  The philosophers commentary on The Ultimate Matrix Collection 10 DVD set talks rather extensively about Manachian duality, pitfalls of polarization and illusory duality.  i.e. the mistake of thinking Humans/Zion=Good, Machines/Matrix=Bad; which one might think from watching the original movie but cannot continue in Reloaded when the Oracle is revealed as a Machine program.  If a story has a clear "good protagonist vs. evil antagonist," then it is Manachian and polar, a duality in conflict.  If the characters do not line up on opposite sides of a definite line but are rather shades of gray, one must look beyond simple Manachian duality to provide a philosophical context.

The "inexperienced conclusion" comment made me chuckle; my former professors would get a kick out of you!  Rather than try to explain the esoteric concept behind these lines of thought myself, let me refer you to a page from a book which was required reading when I earned one of my three four-year degrees in esoteric studies.  The books inclusion on the required reading for the course should be credential enough for the basis of debate if you'd care to rebut.

---

THE PRINCIPLE OF POLARITY. 
“Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled.”–The Kybalion. 

This Principle embodies the truth that “everything is dual”; “everything has two poles”; “everything has its pair of opposites,” all of which were old Hermetic axioms. It explains the old paradoxes, that have perplexed so many, which have been stated as follows: “Thesis and antithesis are identical in nature, but different in degree”; “opposites are the same, differing only in degree”; “the pairs of opposites may be reconciled”; “extremes meet”; “everything is and isn't, at the same time”; “all truths are but half-truths”; “every truth is half false”; “there are two sides to everything,” etc., etc., etc. It explains that in everything there are two poles, or opposite aspects, and that “opposites” are really only the two extremes of the same thing, with many varying degrees between them To illustrate: Heat and Cold, although “opposites,” are really the same thing, the differences consisting merely of degrees of the same thing. Look at your thermometer and see if you can discover where “heat” terminates and “cold” begins! There is no such thing as “absolute heat” or “absolute cold”– the two terms “heat” and “cold” simply indicate varying degrees of the same thing, and that “same thing” which manifests as “heat” and “cold” is merely a form, variety, and rate of Vibration. So “heat” and “cold” are simply the “two poles” of that which we call “Heat”–and the phenomena attendant thereupon are manifestations of the Principle of Polarity. The same principle manifests in the case of “Light and Darkness,” which are the same thing, the difference consisting of varying degrees between the two poles of the phenomena. Where does “darkness” leave off, and “light” begin? What is the difference between “Large and Small”? Between “Hard and Soft”? Between “Black and White”? Between “Sharp and Dull”? Between “Noise and Quiet”? Between “High and Low”? Between “Positive and Negative”? The Principle of Polarity explains these paradoxes, and no other Principle can supersede it. The same Principle operates on the Mental Plane. Let us take a radical and extreme example that of “Love and Hate,” two mental states apparently totally different. And yet there are degrees of Hate and degrees of Love, and a middle point in which we use the terms “Like or Dislike,” which shade into each other so gradually that sometimes we are at a loss to know whether we “like” or “dislike” or “neither.” And all are simply degrees of the same thing, as you will see if you will but think a moment. And, more than this (and considered of more importance by the Hermetists), it is possible to change the vibrations of Hate to the vibrations of Love, in one's own mind, and in the minds of others. Many of you, who read these lines, have had personal experiences of the involuntary rapid transition from Love to Hate, and the reverse, in your own case and that of others. And you will therefore realize the possibility of this being accomplished by the use of the Will, by means of the Hermetic formulas. “Good and Evil” are but the poles of the same thing, and the Hermetist understands the art of transmuting Evil into Good, by means of an application of the Principle of Polarity. In short, the “Art of Polarization” becomes a phase of “Mental Alchemy” known and practiced by the ancient and modern Hermetic Masters. An understanding of the Principle will enable one to change his own Polarity, as well as that of others, if he will devote the time and study necessary to master the art.

---

stewartdaniels1986 wrote:

Btw Whereabouts in the Animatrix does it confirm that it's approx. 2207 in the real?

"Beyond" specifically shows a time stamp in a scan log from 2003 (when it was released), confirming that the simulation continues to progress in traditionally measured time beyond 1999, so we can roughly calculate the real world time based on the estimated year analogous to the trace logs from 1999 displayed in the first Matrix, "closer to 2199" + 8 years + x months + x days etc.

The flaw in that calculation is that you are taking Morpheus' estimation of the date which was guessed at before the revelation of the previous 5 iterations and the first two attempt at creating the simulation which failed.

This is a much more likely calculation:

Procurator wrote:

[Current date] = [End of the War] + [[Morpheus' guess] - [End of the War]]*[# of iterations] + [Some time for the first two failed versions]

So let's say:
2100 + (2199-2100)*6 + 50 = about 2750 at the very least. Using very conservative estimates, of course

The number of previous iterations is irrelevant, as nobody knows how long a cycle lasts, making any calculation that factors them in even more susceptible to error.  The failed versions don't even count because they were created before the 1999 version we see in the film.  Archie states that the machines have become exceedingly efficient at destroying Zion, a tacit implication that the time between cycles is inconsistent (perhaps abating exponentially, who knows).  There is no exact method of determining the current real world year because it is explicitly stated that nobody really knows, so essentially all calculations are flawed, but what we do know is that it in the first film, it was "closer to 2199".  Ergo, the simplest solution is that it is roughly 2199 + the time that has passed since that statement, which is 8 years.  

I just watched beyond and I presume this is the scan log you were talking about...



What we could think of as a date is only shown as 2-2-03 who's to say that
a) Its the date, It could be a reference number....
b) It has anything to do with the date of the simulation. For all we know it could be the date of the real i.e. 2203, 2403, 2503 etc.....
There is nothing conclusive about that scan and as such nothing can be confirmed by it.

Oh come on.  There's no point in overcomplicating something even a child could understand just to win an argument.  

"Final Flight of the Osiris", "Enter the Matrix" and "Matrix Reloaded" use Samsung phones that were invented in 2003, the Cadillacs, Escalades, and Tahoes are all 2003 models, how far do you want to take this?  The simulation progresses, sorry if it ruins your game. 

The quote by Trinity is one that was made of her own feelings and her own point of view and as such cannot be taken as undeniably true.

Eh, no.  That statement is the epitome of one of the major thematic elements beating you over the head throughout the whole of the franchise.  If you dismiss one piece of dialog to suit your arguments, then you have to dismiss it all.

Again you talk of complete re-writing of the mind. I am not. Memories can be adjusted, hell people can do that themselves given the right circumstances. Unless you are an expert in Machine bio-manipulation procedures (and considering that its Sci-Fi, I will take it that you are not. That is like dictating to a story teller what can and can't happen in their own story and imagination) how do you know what is possible or not and what the outcomes would be?
If 21st Century medicinal chemicals can change a persons personality permanently, then what would the odds be that the Machines, who have had a long length of time to study Humans could know how to adjust the mind just enough to allow 99% of Humans to live by their rules and boundaries?
They had to leave choice in, they can't take it away because, as previously mentioned, the first two Simulations failed because of the lack of it.

It isn't even remotely implied in the entire franchise that choice was something the machines had the ability to alter but didn't because of its necessity for the simulation to function.  Everything in the franchise hammers home the fact that you can't change people's minds in any way, it's something people have to do for themselves.

As for the Oracle and Architects conversation, again what you say is conjecture, they could be merely talking about the 1% from that time forwards, not a mass of bluepills who had been awakened by experiences with Smith.

The 1% of the flawed equation is not at issue, their awakening happens anyway and is in fact expected.

Both sides have there issues but perma 1999 is the lesser of the two. If time does progress there becomes a problem. Namely, what happens when AI is invented within the Matrix. You can argue that the Machines could implament ways to hinder this but at that cost we then have reseachers that invested in the idea quesitoning why exactly they can't move on, be it inablity to create it despite the aparent "laws" of science, or just the goverment interfereing.

But as pointed a perma 1999 does have certain issues MOVIE wise. (Beyoned still isn't canon even if it did pick up on the time issue) So in the end it appears that rarebit and Paul went with perma 1999 and while I know stewie will just ignore it, such an issue does seem like something that the W bros would need to ok before it went live.

Another thing to note is that while Smith's explination that the Matrix is set at the peak of human existence and that this doesn't make sence to be souly on a year but more so a time period (say 10 years). It doesn't give room for anything past that. Simular to the AI argument what happens when the world rather then surpace the peak of their existence and make it better, makes it worse? Allowing your crop to kill its self does not seem something that is all to effective now does it?

The number of previous iterations is irrelevant, as nobody knows how long a cycle lasts, making any calculation that factors them in even more susceptible to error.  The failed versions don't even count because they were created before the 1999 version we see in the film.  Archie states that the machines have become exceedingly efficient at destroying Zion, a tacit implication that the time between cycles is inconsistent (perhaps abating exponentially, who knows).  There is no exact method of determining the current real world year because it is explicitly stated that nobody really knows, so essentially all calculations are flawed, but what we do know is that it in the first film, it was "closer to 2199".  Ergo, the simplest solution is that it is roughly 2199 + the time that has passed since that statement, which is 8 years. 

There may be no way of accurately determine the actual date, but continuing with that calculation when we all know it to be fundamentally flawed is ludicrous. You argument is also flawed, we're talking about the date in the real, just because the Machine failed at creating a two simulations before the 1999 version means that in fact more time had to have passed to get to the 1999 version. Morpheus bases his guess on Zion's records, adding the fact that there were iterations before that plus the whole war....

Creation of AI just after 1999 or given a year or two leeway in case of complications, turning this AI into Intelligent Machine into workers for Man, the riots, the creation and economic rise of 01, the war, the 2 failed simulations, 5 iterations who's length is based on the amount of time for an anomaly to emerge due to an equation that is not altered in case of failure of the simulation and the last one definitely lasting longer than the oldest council member in Zion plus Morpheus' guess had to have come from their own records. You think all this was done in just 200 years?!

Oh come on.  There's no point in overcomplicating something even a child could understand just to win an argument.  

"Final Flight of the Osiris", "Enter the Matrix" and "Matrix Reloaded" use Samsung phones that were invented in 2003, the Cadillacs, Escalades, and Tahoes are all 2003 models, how far do you want to take this?  The simulation progresses, sorry if it ruins your game.

You cannot completely deny it though can you, there is no evidence to support it or dismiss it. I admit it is most likely a date but if it is the actual date it could be anything could be anything ending in '03 and doesn't have to be related to the Simulations time.

I think that you are over complicating matters if you feel like you want to bring real life into this Science Fiction Story. You don't have to like it but just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.  As Gami said the peak of human civilisation could be over 2 or 3 years before the truce and the Smith Virus but the LE with Tick Tock and the unchanging cityscape are testament to the fact that, in the current simulation it is always 1999. I'm sorry if that ruins your argument.

It isn't even remotely implied in the entire franchise that choice was something the machines had the ability to alter but didn't because of its necessity for the simulation to function.  Everything in the franchise hammers home the fact that you can't change people's minds in any way, it's something people have to do for themselves.

Again you assumed I said that the Machines can overwrite the whole mind at will and change the perceptions of choice, I only ever said that they can manipulate memories and possibly personality, as that can be done right now with conditioning, situation and medicinal chemicals, I said that they tried to do anything even like attempting to remove or alter choice the system would fail. It was in direct response to your comment 'if minds could be edited, the machines would have the means to effectively prevent them from ever awakening' . If you are going to argue at least read what is written.

You also said that 'reloading Windows doesn't alter your mother board, reloading the matrix doesn't alter your mind' Following this analogy the mind would be software and the brain would be the hardware, so loading new software does mean a change of mind, the same way you can change an operating system that runs on the same motherboard. The system does not alter the Hardware ie. the brain but it can alter the software, the mind. Perhaps not a lot, but enough to suit their needs but not negate choice.

The 1% of the flawed equation is not at issue, their awakening happens anyway and is in fact expected.

It is the issue. The Oracle and Architect don't say that they are talking about bluepills other than the 1% Up until that time the Machines had been trying to prevent awakenings, after the truce, all that wanted out, i.e. the 1%, would be allowed out.

Both sides have there issues but perma 1999 is the lesser of the two. If time does progress there becomes a problem. Namely, what happens when AI is invented within the Matrix. You can argue that the Machines could implament ways to hinder this but at that cost we then have reseachers that invested in the idea quesitoning why exactly they can't move on, be it inablity to create it despite the aparent "laws" of science, or just the goverment interfereing.

ZippyTheSquirrel wrote:

The plain, sad truth is that the world of the Matrix Online was poorly prepared for actual war, which has been proven by the oh-so-coincidental appearance and distraction of the Intruder. Call me a skeptic, but if the Intruder never popped up, the war thing probably would have gotten really really old rather rapidly. After all, it's clear that the Machines could quickly win a war if they pooled all their resources and tactical abilities. And then there's the question of why we're even fighting. But that's not really a story question, now, is it?

But Zip, you're assuming that the Intruder has nothing to do with the war. . .

Recent events have led me to believe that he is here because of the war, and that we better start warming up to him real quick. . .

stewie wrote:

The number of previous iterations is irrelevant, as nobody knows how long a cycle lasts, making any calculation that factors them in even more susceptible to error.  The failed versions don't even count because they were created before the 1999 version we see in the film.  Archie states that the machines have become exceedingly efficient at destroying Zion, a tacit implication that the time between cycles is inconsistent (perhaps abating exponentially, who knows).  There is no exact method of determining the current real world year because it is explicitly stated that nobody really knows, so essentially all calculations are flawed, but what we do know is that it in the first film, it was "closer to 2199".  Ergo, the simplest solution is that it is roughly 2199 + the time that has passed since that statement, which is 8 years. 

There may be no way of accurately determine the actual date, but continuing with that calculation when we all know it to be fundamentally flawed is ludicrous. You argument is also flawed, we're talking about the date in the real, just because the Machine failed at creating a two simulations before the 1999 version means that in fact more time had to have passed to get to the 1999 version. Morpheus bases his guess on Zion's records, adding the fact that there were iterations before that plus the whole war....

Creation of AI just after 1999 or given a year or two leeway in case of complications, turning this AI into Intelligent Machine into workers for Man, the riots, the creation and economic rise of 01, the war, the 2 failed simulations, 5 iterations who's length is based on the amount of time for an anomaly to emerge due to an equation that is not altered in case of failure of the simulation and the last one definitely lasting longer than the oldest council member in Zion plus Morpheus' guess had to have come from their own records. You think all this was done in just 200 years?!

Oh come on.  There's no point in overcomplicating something even a child could understand just to win an argument.  

"Final Flight of the Osiris", "Enter the Matrix" and "Matrix Reloaded" use Samsung phones that were invented in 2003, the Cadillacs, Escalades, and Tahoes are all 2003 models, how far do you want to take this?  The simulation progresses, sorry if it ruins your game.

You cannot completely deny it though can you, there is no evidence to support it or dismiss it. I admit it is most likely a date but if it is the actual date it could be anything could be anything ending in '03 and doesn't have to be related to the Simulations time.

I think that you are over complicating matters if you feel like you want to bring real life into this Science Fiction Story. You don't have to like it but just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.  As Gami said the peak of human civilisation could be over 2 or 3 years before the truce and the Smith Virus but the LE with Tick Tock and the unchanging cityscape are testament to the fact that, in the current simulation it is always 1999. I'm sorry if that ruins your argument.

It isn't even remotely implied in the entire franchise that choice was something the machines had the ability to alter but didn't because of its necessity for the simulation to function.  Everything in the franchise hammers home the fact that you can't change people's minds in any way, it's something people have to do for themselves.

Again you assumed I said that the Machines can overwrite the whole mind at will and change the perceptions of choice, I only ever said that they can manipulate memories and possibly personality, as that can be done right now with conditioning, situation and medicinal chemicals, I said that they tried to do anything even like attempting to remove or alter choice the system would fail. It was in direct response to your comment 'if minds could be edited, the machines would have the means to effectively prevent them from ever awakening' . If you are going to argue at least read what is written.

You also said that 'reloading Windows doesn't alter your mother board, reloading the matrix doesn't alter your mind' Following this analogy the mind would be software and the brain would be the hardware, so loading new software does mean a change of mind, the same way you can change an operating system that runs on the same motherboard. The system does not alter the Hardware ie. the brain but it can alter the software, the mind. Perhaps not a lot, but enough to suit their needs but not negate choice.

The 1% of the flawed equation is not at issue, their awakening happens anyway and is in fact expected.

It is the issue. The Oracle and Architect don't say that they are talking about bluepills other than the 1% Up until that time the Machines had been trying to prevent awakenings, after the truce, all that wanted out, i.e. the 1%, would be allowed out.

Gami, that is a decent statement of what has basically been argued over here. Couldn't have written it any better (Which is why many of my replies are quite long!)

People don't think: 'Oh, it's 2002, we should have progressed so far by now.' Putting the clocks back does not make them think any differently about what work they've already achieved. Progress is made and things are invented in a gradual process, where one piece of work builds upon another - progress doesn't depend on what year you're in. People will look back on the previous year, assess what they've done, and continue. It doesn't matter that the year is now called 1998 instead of 1999 - it's just a number. It doesn't change what they've done.

Yep.

I hate the fact that it's always 1999, and I think it's badly thought out writing that made it so. But I'm not going to just ignore what Rarebit and Paul have come up with. But here's a reason why the 1999 thing makes no sense:

GamiSB wrote:

Both sides have there issues but perma 1999 is the lesser of the two. If time does progress there becomes a problem. Namely, what happens when AI is invented within the Matrix. You can argue that the Machines could implament ways to hinder this but at that cost we then have reseachers that invested in the idea quesitoning why exactly they can't move on, be it inablity to create it despite the aparent "laws" of science, or just the goverment interfereing.

Let's assume that the sole reason the Machines keep the Matrix in the year 1999 is because they don't want people to advance enough to create AI. As TickTock said, the Machines would run into themselves.

But that's not how progress works.

People don't think: 'Oh, it's 2002, we should have progressed so far by now.' Putting the clocks back does not make them think any differently about what work they've already achieved. Progress is made and things are invented in a gradual process, where one piece of work builds upon another - progress doesn't depend on what year you're in. People will look back on the previous year, assess what they've done, and continue. It doesn't matter that the year is now called 1998 instead of 1999 - it's just a number. It doesn't change what they've done.

So maybe the Machines alter history make the Bluepills think they didn't do as much as they did? No. We know the Machines aren't in the habit of modifying Bluepills' memories on a grand scale. Events and missions have shown us that the Bluepills remember all the wierd stuff that's happened in the past couple of years. The Machines don't erase of modify that, so they don't erase or modify society's progress in previous years either.

Therefore, the Machines must be employing some other means to hinder development! It could be anything: returning bad data from experiments, putting people in the wrong mood to do any solid work, lots and lots of social engineering. If they're already limiting progress, why can't they do that during the natural progression of time? The numbers don't matter, and it's a profound waste of resources to modify dates in memories, calendars and records.

Bluepills look back at their past and see that no progress was made, and for whatever reason they don't mind, don't find it odd. And they will have another year where no progress is made. During their lifetimes society will not advance one iota, and they're not going to care. If that's the case, what's the point in going to all that effort to change the dates?!

You're really starting to stretch now, so I'll just leave it at this:  like several other issues, the always 1999 theory was debunked long before MxO.  Occam's Razor, check it out.  

I still dont get the link between time and technological evolution.

Also, would the AI created, as it is in the simulation, not be ultimately be under machine control anyway as it would be created with computers connected to the machines if Bluepills are using them?  Not entirely sure with it.  I dont like the thought that we are stuck in a continuing loop, its pointless, no one goes anywhere, dull and boring   What about in the earlier versions of the Matrix, would they have locked the time in there too?

I still dont get the link between time and technological evolution.

Also, would the AI created, as it is in the simulation, not be ultimately be under machine control anyway as it would be created with computers connected to the machines if Bluepills are using them?  Not entirely sure with it.  I dont like the thought that we are stuck in a continuing loop, its pointless, no one goes anywhere, dull and boring " width="15" height="15">  What about in the earlier versions of the Matrix, would they have locked the time in there too?

Technological evolution along with all evolution is dependednt on time. Without the progression of time there is no evolution. The Machines want and need to stop the evolution so that those within the Matrix remain under their control. If they don't and humans are allowed free rein over everything in the Matrix you could have any number of thigns happen. AI and war just being two examples. With AI you have the Machines meeting themselves and the Matrix could very well follow the same path the real did. Also with the introduction of AI you have another race that you now need to control and keep from uncovering and anounceing the dirty secret about the world.

The same for instances. Once choice was introduced to all simulations and the Machines had to start reswadeing humand to accept their reality rather then reject it. To do this they need to cover all bases and make sure that NOTHING is going to tell someone otherwise.

I do understand that the progress of civilization isn't tied to some date and that people don't say "Oh it's 2007 why are we still driveing when we should be fling into work" But so then it appreas that yes there are technological inhibitations (im aware that this goes aginst my point last night) being placed within the Matrix and in order for these to not look suspicious the date (not just in number but as in its setting) must say late 20th early 21st cewntury. Think of it like this. We have flying cars, Super computers, but we still build our homes as log cabins. Anyone can see that something isn't quiet right with this picture. So to keep this from happening the Machines take steps to freeze the civilization they made in a set period of time. The number if anything is just the last part in this form of control.

GamiSB wrote:

I do understand that the progress of civilization isn't tied to some date and that people don't say "Oh it's 2007 why are we still driveing when we should be fling into work" But so then it appreas that yes there are technological inhibitations (im aware that this goes aginst my point last night) being placed within the Matrix and in order for these to not look suspicious the date (not just in number but as in its setting) must say late 20th early 21st cewntury. Think of it like this. We have flying cars, Super computers, but we still build our homes as log cabins. Anyone can see that something isn't quiet right with this picture. So to keep this from happening the Machines take steps to freeze the civilization they made in a set period of time. The number if anything is just the last part in this form of control.

I don't think resetting the date would help with that, though. If the Bluepills perceive that their current state is a bit weird (though I wouldn't go so far as to say it would ever get as weird as flying cars and log cabins co-existing " width="15" height="15" />), that's just one slice of the big problem: their state has been weird for the past few years because very little has changed. That's a problem irrespective of whether the date loops or flows normally, so the Bluepills must just have come to accept it their pitiful progress somehow.

The only way resetting the date would help is if Bluepills need to see progress and the Machines change history so that their advancement diminishes going back in time. But we know the Machines don't do that because they don't alter memories on a grand scale.

Maybe, just maybe they loop the date for some sort of psychological reason (perhaps something to do with how supposedly important a change in millenium is, keeping everyone on their toes and hopeful for the future). But they need to weigh the disputed benefits of that against the enormous resources and effort needed to put everything back a year every twelve months. I don't see them wasting their time with it.

The date loops needed because of how short of a time they give. Replaceing all the 99s with 98s is the last step, I think, in this processs. The Machines apparently froze technology at a point where it's on the verge of AI but just short enough where there is still a long way ago. If they allowed time to continue but froze technology we would be looking at a 1999 world with a 2099 lable. 100 years where technology just froze? Sure thats unnoticalbe at 2003, 2004, but around 2010 you start to wonder and by 2020 it's getting ridiculous that no one can come up with anything.

It never made sense anyway.

Next MxO canon weirdness to clarify: the Matrix is only Megacity and everywhere else on the planet is a big blur.

Harpalos-mxo wrote:

It never made sense anyway.

Next MxO canon weirdness to clarify: the Matrix is only Megacity and everywhere else on the planet is a big blur.

On Neo's computer in The Matrix, an article says something about Morpheus almost being caught in London (Heathrow, I think).  The Matrix is all over, isn't it?

zeroone506 wrote:

Is there a definite conception of whether the Matrix is the Globe or just MegaCity, or whether it's stuck in 1999 or not, and how everything of this works in the simulation so the bluepills don't get the brainz?
Or is it planned to be elaborated in any way?

Maybe you happened to read it, LostProphet, and most recently, Paperghost, had quite good arguments, both logical and factual ones, that it's not stuck in 1999 and the Matrix is more than Mega City.

One of the things Paul said came out of his talk with them about the proposed chapter 7-9 storyline was them saying that the Matrix is bigger than just the city and the mountains. But they didn't say how much bigger.

ShiXinFeng wrote:

ZippyTheSquirrel wrote:

The plain, sad truth is that the world of the Matrix Online was poorly prepared for actual war, which has been proven by the oh-so-coincidental appearance and distraction of the Intruder. Call me a skeptic, but if the Intruder never popped up, the war thing probably would have gotten really really old rather rapidly. After all, it's clear that the Machines could quickly win a war if they pooled all their resources and tactical abilities. And then there's the question of why we're even fighting. But that's not really a story question, now, is it?

But Zip, you're assuming that the Intruder has nothing to do with the war. . .

Recent events have led me to believe that he is here because of the war, and that we better start warming up to him real quick. . .

No, of course, he has everything to do with the war, which only supports my statement in that Rarebit cannot, CANNOT, write good plot twists. Face it, almost every single twist after Anome's death has alienated a large portion of the player population. Reinsertion and the entire Cypherite Org; the Truce breaking and certain factions created solely for keeping the peace - I don't think I've even seen any McDoE members around lately anymore. I'm sure there's more, but I haven't had any sleep in the past 28 hours and I can't think clearly enough to label them here. What's the deal with the Intruder? A man made entirely out of glowing wires? Even the Assassin's fly-based body was just humanoid enough, but this is ridiculous.

I don't want to call Rarebit a bad writer, per se, but I find myself with limited choices in describing his controversially poor plot path decisions. Besides, there's always Chadwick to put the blame on. That's easier, considering the only interaction we get out of him is (was?) the Sentinel and the occasional interview that someone picks up and someone else extremely over-reacts to. I think the real problem is that, when it comes to the Matrix, I am a hardcore conservative, and when twists happen along that wouldn't even have been thought of in the movies, it ruffles my fur.

When you really think about it, it doesn't even matter what all the movies say about the date. Rarebit's already set in stone our fate. Truthfully, before the stupid mess with the date, I had always assumed the date was generically unimportant, and everyone was pushed to believe that it was "around the modern 21st century time period", much like in the Real, it's assumed to be "da future." But eh, what can you do? Go back in time? Rig an event with Tick Tock and force the Matrix to adapt? But wait! Before we can do any of that, remember, we're at war-- but wait! Some big guy with glowing white wires is tearing up the city-- but wait! [insert next chapter's stunning discovery that distracts from everything else "conveniently"]

All the main storyline elements are first cleared by the Wachowski brothers. So they OKed the Intruder and the no reinsertion thing. So you have to remember that. And no one ever said the story was going to make everyone happy, or even cater to the subscribers of MXO. Basically, Rarebit and Paul's job are to tell the story of the Matrix, not to adapt the story to player's likings. And if something happens like where the truce breaks and that screws up a faction, well then oh well. The faction needs to adapt and move on. We can't be afraid of change in an ever changing world.

PS- I consider the bluepills thinking it's 1999 all the time in the matrix. While the redpills know that time has advanced inside and outside of the matrix.

PSS- We know the machines can implant past memories. Because at the begging of MXO, we found out that there was an earthquake in the city. Which we have never seen, but it's something the Machines implanted in to the minds of the bluepills. So what's to say the machines couldn't hault any progress made in science and revert everyone's memory to think it's 1999. And that still wouldn't mess with the notion of bluepills becoming aware of the Matrix. Because those are just memories, but feelings and choice would still remain no matter what happened. (Just my thoughts.)

The date loops needed because of how short of a time they give. Replaceing all the 99s with 98s is the last step, I think, in this processs. The Machines apparently froze technology at a point where it's on the verge of AI but just short enough where there is still a long way ago. If they allowed time to continue but froze technology we would be looking at a 1999 world with a 2099 lable. 100 years where technology just froze? Sure thats unnoticalbe at 2003, 2004, but around 2010 you start to wonder and by 2020 it's getting ridiculous that no one can come up with anything.

GamiSB wrote:

The date loops needed because of how short of a time they give. Replaceing all the 99s with 98s is the last step, I think, in this processs. The Machines apparently froze technology at a point where it's on the verge of AI but just short enough where there is still a long way ago. If they allowed time to continue but froze technology we would be looking at a 1999 world with a 2099 lable. 100 years where technology just froze? Sure thats unnoticalbe at 2003, 2004, but around 2010 you start to wonder and by 2020 it's getting ridiculous that no one can come up with anything.

I've highlighted the issue. The Bluepills are going to see a lifetime (we're not sure a cycle is 100 years, but it's probably close) where nothing changed. Nothing changes from year to year, and their past doesn't get altered because their memories aren't changed. So they're going to see a lifetime of no progress no matter what the year is.

Instead of seeing a 1999 world in 2099 if time advanced normally, the loop makes them see a 1899 world in 1999.

Procurator wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

The date loops needed because of how short of a time they give. Replaceing all the 99s with 98s is the last step, I think, in this processs. The Machines apparently froze technology at a point where it's on the verge of AI but just short enough where there is still a long way ago. If they allowed time to continue but froze technology we would be looking at a 1999 world with a 2099 lable. 100 years where technology just froze? Sure thats unnoticalbe at 2003, 2004, but around 2010 you start to wonder and by 2020 it's getting ridiculous that no one can come up with anything.

I've highlighted the issue. The Bluepills are going to see a lifetime (we're not sure a cycle is 100 years, but it's probably close) where nothing changed. Nothing changes from year to year, and their past doesn't get altered because their memories aren't changed. So they're going to see a lifetime of no progress no matter what the year is.

Instead of seeing a 1999 world in 2099 if time advanced normally, the loop makes them see a 1899 world in 1999.

But see its not an issue and Tick Tock's event explaind how its possible. As time does get shoved down yes you would think that people would notice that nothings getting done for 100+ years. But as the time moves on people forget things. The Machines froze the world and keep nothing happening. To blues 1999 is a boring year, and 1998 was borning and so on. No one dies of imporance, nothing major happens, no war, nothing that would stick out. This goes on and on untill the history leasons taught in school take over. Then all thats needed is the simple addition of recalling watching the TV when Kennedy was shot, or the lunar landing placed over the now whats just a long forgotten boring year.

With the year always progressing though this is much harder. People actully see the years going by and are aware of 100 years of bordom. When it stays the same though it is much harder to notice a never changeing pattern. And that is why the year never changes.