When Smith Becomes Oracle

Raviola · 12/05/2007 21:05:05

I haven't watched my trilogy recently because of work/study, but over xmas I'm going to watch each movie again.

But I think I'm right about this: In Revolutions Smith tells Oracle You should know Mom when she says he's a bastard. Then he pierces her with his hand after she says Do what you're here to do and he says Yes, ma'am.

My question is: Anybody know what Oracle, after turning into a copy of Smith, starts cackling her head off about? I never really figured that out; is it b/c she saw he's gonna lose to Neo in the big fight? Well, if so, didn't she know that way before he copied onto her, so why would that be worth laughing her behind off over? Is she just overcome with hysteria after her son (apparently) copied himself over her?

Anyway, someone give me their opinion. That's actually been nagging me for a while. Thanks!

GamiSB · 12/05/2007 21:11:12

My take from it was he started laughing cuse he was seeing the end and his victory over Neo. But as the Oracle said no one can see past the choices they don't understand so he could not see what the result of Neo's sacrifice would be.

Chemuel · 12/05/2007 21:13:55

GamiSB wrote:

My take from it was he started laughing cuse he was seeing the end and his victory over Neo. But as the Oracle said no one can see past the choices they don't understand so he could not see what the result of Neo's sacrifice would be.

Yup. He can see Neo's death at his hands.

Othinn1 · 12/05/2007 21:38:07

This is somewhat off topic, and I'll have to study the scene some more to be sure ... Is it my imagination, or does the vase fall again during the code vision part of Smith's takeover of the Oracle? When I look at the right side of the screen during that scene, I see something that looks like the vase falling.

GamiSB · 12/05/2007 21:42:45

It probably does. There's alot of energy going off in that room during that part (cabinets flying open etc) so I think its safe to assume that yeah the vase does get knocked off again. If that was intended or not to have some kinda meaning I haven't the faintest idea but knowing the W bros I'd say yes.

GypsyJuggler · 12/05/2007 22:04:20

Without reviewing the scene, I have the feeling it was a cackle of success at having dominated every RSI in the System.

ManicV · 12/06/2007 11:19:57

Othinn1 wrote:

This is somewhat off topic, and I'll have to study the scene some more to be sure ... Is it my imagination, or does the vase fall again during the code vision part of Smith's takeover of the Oracle? When I look at the right side of the screen during that scene, I see something that looks like the vase falling.

I wouldn't be surprised. There are a couple wink/nods to the first movie peppered throughout Reloaded and Revolutions. When Smith tries to copy onto Neo before the big fight in Debir Court, as Neo counteracts the copying process, you can faintly hear the scream that Smith let out in the final scene from The Matrix before Neo destroyed him.

But back on topic, I agree with Gami. It wasn't necessarily The Oracle laughing through Smith, but rather it was Smith himself laughing after gaining the knowledge of what was going to happen. He saw that he was going to win the fight against Neo, but he couldn't see past his choice to defeat Neo. He didn't understand that he and Neo were two sides of the same equation, so he didn't understand that Neo's death would mean his own death.

Of course the important thing is, as the Oracle might say, to make up your own d**** mind. SMILEY

Scolirk · 12/06/2007 21:13:11

When smith copied himself over the various programs, wouldn't that give him access to the program itself? Technically he would have seen the oracle's visions, and saw him defeating Neo. He mentions in the final scene, "This is just how I saw it. I stood.. here, and I say...", which probably had something to do with the Oracle program.

Fractor · 12/07/2007 01:19:21

Scolirk wrote:

When smith copied himself over the various programs, wouldn't that give him access to the program itself? Technically he would have seen the oracle's visions, and saw him defeating Neo. He mentions in the final scene, "This is just how I saw it. I stood.. here, and I say...", which probably had something to do with the Oracle program.

He then says "everything that has a beginning has an end" which is a quote from the Oracle so yes I think the Oracle program gave him insight that if Neo died he will die too. This is why he was suddenly reluctant to finish him off and then foolishly copied himself on him which gave Deus Ex Machina a link to send a virus through Neo's RSI to destroy the Smith program.

GypsyJuggler · 12/07/2007 01:46:34

Fractor wrote:

Scolirk wrote:
When smith copied himself over the various programs, wouldn't that give him access to the program itself? Technically he would have seen the oracle's visions, and saw him defeating Neo. He mentions in the final scene, "This is just how I saw it. I stood.. here, and I say...", which probably had something to do with the Oracle program.
He then says "everything that has a beginning has an end" which is a quote from the Oracle so yes I think the Oracle program gave him insight that if Neo died he will die too. This is why he was suddenly reluctant to finish him off and then foolishly copied himself on him which gave Deus Ex Machina a link to send a virus through Neo's RSI to destroy the Smith program.

I rather think that when he said "...everything that has a beginning has an end." the Oracle was to speaking through him rather than him speaking with Oracular insight. And the destruction of Smith seemed to be Neo using the same trick from the end of the first movie rather than any action of Dues Ex Machina.

GamiSB · 12/07/2007 07:51:42

GypsyJuggler wrote:

Fractor wrote:
Scolirk wrote:
When smith copied himself over the various programs, wouldn't that give him access to the program itself? Technically he would have seen the oracle's visions, and saw him defeating Neo. He mentions in the final scene, "This is just how I saw it. I stood.. here, and I say...", which probably had something to do with the Oracle program.
He then says "everything that has a beginning has an end" which is a quote from the Oracle so yes I think the Oracle program gave him insight that if Neo died he will die too. This is why he was suddenly reluctant to finish him off and then foolishly copied himself on him which gave Deus Ex Machina a link to send a virus through Neo's RSI to destroy the Smith program.
I rather think that when he said "...everything that has a beginning has an end." the Oracle was to speaking through him rather than him speaking with Oracular insight. And the destruction of Smith seemed to be Neo using the same trick from the end of the first movie rather than any action of Dues Ex Machina.

The quote is something from the Oracles programing comeing through him. Smith had seen everything up to that point and knew he was nearing the end of his fight. But he didn't understand what was happening which scared him. He saw Neo lying on the ground beaten and knew what he had to say but after that it was all new. He didn't understand Neo's choice or his own after that point and haveing been dependent on forsight, fate, and the system to tell him what to do and now he was scared . Smith for the first time had to choose what to do.

You know you kinda have to feel sorry for him at the end.

PS10N · 12/07/2007 10:39:48

"which gave Deus Ex Machina a link to send a virus through Neo's RSI to destroy the Smith program."

That's not what happened. This is the biggest lie ever told about the plot of The Matrix movies; it originated from someone who didn't understand anything they had just seen and who needed to invent a "neato sci-fi" reason to fit their limited cogniscence. Because it was repeated over and over and over ad infinitum ad nausea, it has been believed by the majority who simply don't know any better. (Thus, this isn't a shot at the post's author; he's merely read in to the nonsense.) All the answers to every question brought up in a Matrix medium are answered somewhere else in the story. I for one am sick to death of repeating what is already there to hear in the scripts. "Open to interpretation" and blah blah blah but don't make up crap that isn't in the movies, that goes against what is in the movies and expect anyone who was paying attention to accept it.

EDIT: more on topic and less pissy, yes, Smith gained the knowledge of his hosts. ("What did you do with Sati?" | "Cookies need love like everything does.") The very same Smith who said that line was the Smith who had been Sati before her shell was overwritten. Thusly, Smith gains "the Sight" by taking over Oracle ("You have the Sight now Neo, you are seeing the world without time" / "They say [the eyes of the Oracle] cannot be taken, they can only be given.") and could see up to the point of his understanding of his choices: defeating Neo. Neo had no such foresight about his own choice. He had to understand that choosing to fight simply made both sides stronger and the whole more unbalanced. This "Satori of Sati" if you will (and if you can,) resulted in polar opposites being brought directly together, balancing the equation in one violent connection which by definition destroyed both imbalances.

"And the destruction of Smith seemed to be Neo using the same trick from the end of the first movie rather than any action of Dues Ex Machina."

Props to you for this, GypsyJuggler. The W. Brothers always wanted to make The Matrix a trilogy, but if that didn't happen, they wanted to use the ideas from the trilogy in the original, but without giving them all away in case there would be a trilogy. (Isn't movie making interesting?) So, you will see little hints of Reloaded and Revolutions in the original if you look closely. The old bum in the subway station who sees Morpheus jack-out was a "plot shadow" of the Trainman. There are others, but I'll leave them to the watchers.

Croesis · 12/07/2007 12:17:52

From what I understood through all of the layers of story was that Smith took over Neo, fulfilling his only purpose, and unbalancing the equation. I've always taken that in doing so Smith is directly connected to the machine mainframe through Neo's body as he was jacked in through the Machines which enabled them to directly access the Smith program and destroy it. I've heard of other theories, that when Smith overwrote him that allowed Neo to do what he did at the end of the first and destroy Smith from the inside... but there are a couple of things that this makes me wonder about...

If Neo is the exact opposite of Smith and Smith beat him to exhaustion how would Neo have the mental energy to do it again and to all of the Smiths everywhere? Also, what does Deus Ex Machina do to Neo's body after Smith overwrites him?

BandaAncha · 12/07/2007 16:38:57

Vinia wrote:

Also, what does Deus Ex Machina do to Neo's body after Smith overwrites him?

thats the mistery that drives the game

Croesis · 12/07/2007 17:17:07

BandaAncha wrote:

Vinia wrote:
Also, what does Deus Ex Machina do to Neo's body after Smith overwrites him?
thats the mistery that drives the game

I meant the pulse that shocks Neo's body when it's been overwritten.... is it meant to resuscitate Neo's mind inside Smith. You can see why it's easy for people to speculate that the Deus Ex Machina could use the connection with Neos body to destroy Smith as its a direct connection....

PS10N · 12/25/2007 14:03

"He is you. Your opposite, your negative." - The Oracle

When you bring two opposites together, they cancel each other out. End of Story.

Zerotolerance · 12/26/2007 23:36:33

Vinia wrote:

BandaAncha wrote:
Vinia wrote:
Also, what does Deus Ex Machina do to Neo's body after Smith overwrites him?
thats the mistery that drives the game

I meant the pulse that shocks Neo's body when it's been overwritten.... is it meant to resuscitate Neo's mind inside Smith. You can see why it's easy for people to speculate that the Deus Ex Machina could use the connection with Neos body to destroy Smith as its a direct connection....

Think in terms of software.

Smith is a virus and that much as been established. He eats up other programs, copying himself over them. Imagine if all of the icons on your desktop assumed the same pathname, one by one, spreading adjacently. You'd get the same program no matter what you clicked, over time. Neo was an anti-virus, or so that capability existed within his code. If you think about what happened in terms of more than just one aspect, both software in the physical (cyber?) realm and beliefs in the mind (including Smith's mind) played a part in how the events unfolded.

Paying attention to the little tidbit where Smith says "I'm not sure exactly how it happens... perhaps a part of you copied on to me," we can come up with theories as to how this came to be, but it was no doubt the Oracle's hand. As the Architect said, "You played a dangerous game." The Oracle expected Neo to destroy Smith, and that triggered the virus aspect. That's where the second aspect comes in... Smith was designed for a purpose, but somewhere along the lines he became a virus. It may have been a part of the programming, but I'd like to think that in witnessing Neo dying and coming back to life, he refused to obey his own programming. He wanted to live as well, much as Neo wanted to live... Equally, they both wanted to live. Only Smith's purpose at that point was no longer aligned with the System. He'd stopped doing what he was meant to do. Although not in service to the Merovingian, his Agent-like abilities were no longer isolated and he was for all intents and purposes and Exile. Which would also explain why the Agent intervened, only to be assimilated by the Smith programming.

In all, I believe that in the moment of the shockwave and Neo's body spasming in the Real is Neo dying. For Neo to be alive after all this time would negate any sacrifice he made. It would cheapen the saga for Neo or Smith to have survived. I think with that you might understand my opinion of the anniversary event we had this past year. If Smith is alive and not mere remnants, this means Neo is alive. Therefore the Matrix hasn't been reset and the Machines are entirely out of control with the current storyline...

Despite how hard the System tries, if we view what's happened up until now it's been steadily going downhill for the Machines...

For what it's worth, I wonder what would've happened if Neo hadn't called Deus Ex Machina's bluff when it said they didn't need him. Would Smith have overrun the Source or would they have stopped Smith and destroy Zion? At this point it looks like that would've been the better decision.

PS10N · 12/26/2007 23:40:03

"At this point in the story, Neo stands on the verge of satori, ready to resolve the paradox of choice and choicelessness, of free will vs. fate, but that can only be achieved through an act of surrender, which occurs after he has abandoned the perspectile nature of truth, accepting the totality of present consciousness, which ultimately allows an evolutionary transition, transcending the Cartesian dilemma through the emergence of delimited spirit, which then provides the world with the choice of a third path, the path of Neo, the path of peace." - Larry Wachowski

Zerotolerance · 12/26/2007 23:44:13

Vinia wrote:

Surfel wrote:
For an interesting theory on what was going on, go and check out www.matrixresolutions.com

That site counters your theory, I know because it was one of the sources I used in my research. Check out Cancelling Opposites under the Debunked section....

In which this quote occurs:
'Smith would have been smart enough to know that such a thing would happen if cancellation alone could destroy him, being the ultimate computer virus that is able to think and make decisions to ensure its own survival (and also having taken over every other program in the Matrix, including the Oracle!). Oracle-Smith definitely would have foreseen such a predictable way to die. But not even Oracle-Smith could foresee his own death when it is caused by Neo's non-understood decision to give himself up (see Smith: Smith's Defeat). Not only that, but if the Oracle knew Smith is Neo's opposite, certainly Smith would know too since he copied over the Oracle.'

In the 'Smith's Defeat' section this comment is present:
'So, Smith's mere connection to the Source through Neo-Smith was not enough to get Smith deleted: deletion had to be chosen. If all the Smiths were merely "connected" to the Source in the end (without Neo's choice preceding it), then all the Smiths would just be dumped into Mobil Avenue as exiles (and probably get right back into the Matrix if one of them is Trainman-Smith). Remember, even though Smith is a virus, he is still an exile who can choose not to be deleted over and over again, if necessary.
Just as the system began to delete Neo-Smith, Oracle-Smith said, "Oh, no, no, no. No, it's not fair." Now we know why: Oracle-Smith doesn't think it's fair that he has to share Neo's sacrifice just because Neo chose it for himself'

Now I'm not saying that the author is correct but, as the end wasn't explained by the Wachowski's and as it is down to the individual watching the films to make their own decisions and conclusions, you cannot say that it is wrong either. If there is some other evidence apart from the mathematical part then I am willing to hear it. It's been an interesting time researching about this, I feel that my eyes have been opened a little more than before.

We're thinking way too much in terms of our OWN software, though...

Some knowledge may not be accessible. These are complex programs with many attributes from appearance variables down to speech, moods, etc. What if their knowledge had certain restrictions or firewalls? It's possible that the Oracle had barriers between all of her vast knowledge and the things that were left for Smith to discover? Perhaps he copied over her appearance and some rudimentary databases, but not some of the more unique details? He may have eaten up her resources and some things were hungrily deleted in the process? Programs within the Matrix are far too complex and the Oracle has precognitive abilities, routines and subroutines, that the Smith program may not have even been able to process or understand.

From what we did see, we could probably assume that the Oracle gave Smith the complete code of The One. He and Neo were truly equal in that final battle, afterall.

Zerotolerance · 12/26/2007 23:45:15

PS10N wrote:

"At this point in the story, Neo stands on the verge of satori, ready to resolve the paradox of choice and choicelessness, of free will vs. fate, but that can only be achieved through an act of surrender, which occurs after he has abandoned the perspectile nature of truth, accepting the totality of present consciousness, which ultimately allows an evolutionary transition, transcending the Cartesian dilemma through the emergence of delimited spirit, which then provides the world with the choice of a third path, the path of Neo, the path of peace." - Larry Wachowski

I heard that one of the W's was a transvestite and that's why Neo wore a cassock. Wonder how much truth there is to that rumor.

PS10N · 12/26/2007 23:48:43

Watch their first film "Bound" if you want more along those lines.

GamiSB · 12/26/2007 23:57:53

Zerotolerance wrote:

PS10N wrote:
"At this point in the story, Neo stands on the verge of satori, ready to resolve the paradox of choice and choicelessness, of free will vs. fate, but that can only be achieved through an act of surrender, which occurs after he has abandoned the perspectile nature of truth, accepting the totality of present consciousness, which ultimately allows an evolutionary transition, transcending the Cartesian dilemma through the emergence of delimited spirit, which then provides the world with the choice of a third path, the path of Neo, the path of peace." - Larry Wachowski

I heard that one of the W's was a transvestite and that's why Neo wore a cassock. Wonder how much truth there is to that rumor.

~~First part is a yes/sorta. Larry is now Lana or whatever girl named he picked after the operation.~~ The second part....idk, looked kick *CENSORED* either way.

*edit*
Scratch that. Aparently it was just a rumor started cuse they dont do interviews xP

Croesis · 12/27/2007 00:04:51

Hehe! I think this is getting way off topic now! Even the Neo Vs Smith debate was veering off topic as the question was about why Oracle-Smith starts laughing after Smith overwrites the Oracle!

Zerotolerance · 12/27/2007 14:25:53

Vinia wrote:

Hehe! I think this is getting way off topic now! Even the Neo Vs Smith debate was veering off topic as the question was about why Oracle-Smith starts laughing after Smith overwrites the Oracle!

True.

Well, my two cents on that in the reader's digest, shortened version is this: Smith sees with the Oracle's eyes. This means he's opened to more incredible powurz as a result. It could also be that he does in fact see the end, as it's supposed to happen, but only saw it through to his own desires. He saw himself winning. Or so he thought.

PS10N · 12/27/2007 17:58:10

If anyone can expound on my "satori of sati" comment far above, you can come sit at our midsummer fire and stare into the void with us.