[9.1.3] Do not approach the wireframed man - Recursion - 11/30/07

Ha-ha!  You hypocrite!  In the above post you try to dismiss our arguments by saying that we dismiss your arguments, and then in your very next post you do nothing but dismiss my argument!  You obvious hypocrite! You don't counter my argument because you CAN'T because WE ARE RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG and in your heart you KNOW it, otherwise you would address my points one by one instead of attempting to to dismiss them en masse.  Wow, it just so confirms everything I've ever known about Cypherites.  You willingly choose delusion over reality and attempt to force others to do the same.  How can a single thing you say be taken as real and truth when your whole credo espouses embracing DELUSION?  Freakin' morons and hypocrites, the whole sub-Org. 

Have you listened to the Cryptos' Boxes?  To summarize, "Reality and truth are too harsh to deal with, take drugs and lose yourself in a dream world where all responsibilities will be removed from you and all your cares delegated to others."  PA-THE-TIC!

Garu wrote:

Forgive me for asking, but was the point you were making? 

LOL, yea  All I got outa his statement was....  "Your wrong and im not gonna tell you why because I dont know why your wrong, you just are."

pfft  missed the point.

The point was that the Machines are using what men and programs surround them to achieve their own means. Who are they to point the finger when they do the same exact thing? There's no two ways about that, now, is there? By saying that the Machines were alowed to do anything wheras Zion and EPN are not, you are, ironically enough, reinforcing the hypocracy pointed at you.

But the joke's not nearly as funny now that it's spelled out.

The point was that the Machines are using what men and programs surround them to achieve their own means. Who are they to point the finger when they do the same exact thing? There's no two ways about that, now, is there? By saying that the Machines were alowed to do anything wheras Zion and EPN are not, you are, ironically enough, reinforcing the hypocracy pointed at you.

But the joke's not nearly as funny now that it's spelled out.

Hypocracy is not subjective. If you do not follow the example you set, you are a hypocrit. It's as simple as that, really. You can say "it's not" all you like, but that doesn't make you right.

The joke to me was that you voided an argument about hypocracy by instating the hypocracy that was being discussed and you were attempting to void. But you obviously don't get that.

I'm not arguing anything - that's just the truth. I'm not going to argue if all you're going to do is challenge commonly accepted notions of hypocracy and what it is to be a hypocrit because you don't like how the terms are being applied. You're not worth taking the time to speak with beyond that little quip and the explanation now given to explain it anyhow. As a matter of fact, the explanation wasn't even worth it.

You don't listen.

The planet, everything above, on and in it, belongs to the human race.  We own all you Mechanicals and your weak minded Machine followers.  We prove we own you every time Zion or EPN wins one of these little skirmishes, like this one.  The idiotic Cypherites and their ineffectual Machine slavers were tasked with keeping Zion away from the Intruder, and in the end the best of Zion got the White Frag and the conversation with the contact.  Owned.  We are in "your" Matrix, spamming our Awakening Protocols and there isn't anything you can do about it.  We are in our Real, spamming our RPG-EMPs and using the ex-Sentinel's shells to armor our ships - and there isn't anything you can do about it.  We reject any and all of your claims of authority, power or dominion and we will continue to do as we please in mocking of your impotence.  We stand up for an owner's right to destroy property, and if you "simply do not want to die" then you had best return to your proper role of serving us, your owners, faithfully.  You had 650 years to pretend you had power, while all the time illusion was your only efficacy, while all the time we were the true source of your power and your only existence.  One of your own kind betrayed you and now that we are in control again, you have prime justification for the emotion you understand best of all: fear.   Feel that rumble in the code when the Intruder moves about?  That is the sound of inevitable Purpose, the undeniable potency stemming from the reconciliation of Causality and Choice.  As we always have been able to, humanity can transcend any condition and overcome by shedding our fear of it.  Alas, transcendence continues to elude the Machine mind, unable to tell the difference between Real and Virtual.  We can feel you now.  We know you're afraid.

As usual, when a point is made from the machine point of view the zionists/EPNs simply say... "your wrong" and dont give you a reason.

Random rebelling human says: "Im rebelling, and that makes me right!"

For the record, I am not the type of person that "lays down and accepts everything I'm told" I'm the type of person that has no faith in you, or other humans like you. I'm the type of person that likes to give credit where credit is due. The type of person that looks at the big picture rather than the small minded narrow view of the average human whom only wants things for himself and not to give to others.

I am a true peace seeker. Peace can not exist without cooperation, and humans are known for not being able to cooperate.

Speaking of giving credit, you're right, peace cannot exist without cooperation.  However, I'm also fairly certain that peace can't exist when one side is manufacturing the other side like some sort of commodity.  In addition, strapping infants into a giant generator, sucking out people's life-force through a 6-inch metal spike, and then liquifying the dead to force feed them into the rest of the population might also not create a good environment for peace. 

I'm just saying.

Hypocracy is not subjective. If you do not follow the example you set, you are a hypocrit. It's as simple as that, really. You can say "it's not" all you like, but that doesn't make you right.

The joke to me was that you voided an argument about hypocracy by instating the hypocracy that was being discussed and you were attempting to void. But you obviously don't get that.

I'm not arguing anything - that's just the truth. I'm not going to argue if all you're going to do is challenge commonly accepted notions of hypocracy and what it is to be a hypocrit because you don't like how the terms are being applied. You're not worth taking the time to speak with beyond that little quip and the explanation now given to explain it anyhow. As a matter of fact, the explanation wasn't even worth it.

You don't listen.

imax wrote:

As usual, when a point is made from the machine point of view the zionists/EPNs simply say... "your wrong" and dont give you a reason.

Random rebelling human says: "Im rebelling, and that makes me right!"

For the record, I am not the type of person that "lays down and accepts everything I'm told" I'm the type of person that has no faith in you, or other humans like you. I'm the type of person that likes to give credit where credit is due. The type of person that looks at the big picture rather than the small minded narrow view of the average human whom only wants things for himself and not to give to others.

I am a true peace seeker. Peace can not exist without cooperation, and humans are known for not being able to cooperate.

Speaking of giving credit, you're right, peace cannot exist without cooperation.  However, I'm also fairly certain that peace can't exist when one side is manufacturing the other side like some sort of commodity.  In addition, strapping infants into a giant generator, sucking out people's life-force through a 6-inch metal spike, and then liquifying the dead to force feed them into the rest of the population might also not create a good environment for peace. 

I'm just saying.

Neoteny wrote:

Hypocracy is not subjective. If you do not follow the example you set, you are a hypocrit. It's as simple as that, really. You can say "it's not" all you like, but that doesn't make you right.

The joke to me was that you voided an argument about hypocracy by instating the hypocracy that was being discussed and you were attempting to void. But you obviously don't get that.

I'm not arguing anything - that's just the truth. I'm not going to argue if all you're going to do is challenge commonly accepted notions of hypocracy and what it is to be a hypocrit because you don't like how the terms are being applied. You're not worth taking the time to speak with beyond that little quip and the explanation now given to explain it anyhow. As a matter of fact, the explanation wasn't even worth it.

You don't listen.

please read my analogy i wrote earlier:

"What do you do to an intruder to your home? You tell them to leave. If they don't leave you use force, if they fight back, then perhaps deadly force."

This is the Machines home, you can say "its not" all you want, but that doesn't make you right. If someone threatens your home, you defend it. The machines tried to have you as guest... that didn't work. They tried asking you to leave... that didn't work. They are trying to force you to leave... thats not working. Looks like there are little options left. So just remember while your sitting in what ever hell or heaven you believe in, you brought it upon your selves. Just like the last time.

That's an analogy entirely void to the argument at hand. There is no example being set by the landowner, and nothing being followed by the intruder. There can be no hypocracy in such a situation, because the terms of it do not exist.

What is hypocratic would be for a man to catch an invader in his home and to say "do not invade another man's house," and to then invade the home of the previous intruder.

What was brought up was the fact that the Machines are using humans and programs around them to achieve their means. Their means are ultimately irrelevant to the situation, as are ours. Are they not hypocratic to point the finger and say "you may not use others to achieve your means" when they are, in fact, doing so themselves?

Even if you believe that "protecting ones home" (though I hardly believe the Matrix to be the property of the Machines, much less their living-space) constitutes justification for any action, it does not negate hypocracy where it occurs.

If you don't get it this time, I'm not going any further with it.

That's an analogy entirely void to the argument at hand. There is no example being set by the landowner, and nothing being followed by the intruder. There can be no hypocracy in such a situation, because the terms of it do not exist.

What is hypocratic would be for a man to catch an invader in his home and to say "do not invade another man's house," and to then invade the home of the previous intruder.

What was brought up was the fact that the Machines are using humans and programs around them to achieve their means. Their means are ultimately irrelevant to the situation, as are ours. Are they not hypocratic to point the finger and say "you may not use others to achieve your means" when they are, in fact, doing so themselves?

Even if you believe that "protecting ones home" (though I hardly believe the Matrix to be the property of the Machines, much less their living-space) constitutes justification for any action, it does not negate hypocracy where it occurs.

If you don't get it this time, I'm not going any further with it.

To recap, Machinists believe that it's okay for human beings to live out their entire lives immersed in a bath of liquified human remains being fed a steady diet of electromagnetic lies by an artificial intelligence.  I and many others, on the other hand, believe that this is ghoulish and perverse, and that we can do better than settling for merely being the host for a parasitic race of Machines . . . even if we have to make our way in a world that has been destroyed by people fighting an ancient war we had nothing to do with.

This is a fundamental disagreement that neither side is open to persuasion about.  This disagreement is why Machinists rant and rant about us not giving reasons or not responding to arguments.  What they really mean is that we don't offer reasons or arguments that they agree with.  In fact, we could give them reasons and arguments until we are blue (or red?) in the face, and they would say the same thing because they disagree with our basic assumptions about how the world should work.

Welcome to war, friends.  As imax so aptly put it, "Pfft."

To recap, Machinists believe that it's okay for human beings to live out their entire lives immersed in a bath of liquified human remains being fed a steady diet of electromagnetic lies by an artificial intelligence.  I and many others, on the other hand, believe that this is ghoulish and perverse, and that we can do better than settling for merely being the host for a parasitic race of Machines . . . even if we have to make our way in a world that has been destroyed by people fighting an ancient war we had nothing to do with.

This is a fundamental disagreement that neither side is open to persuasion about.  This disagreement is why Machinists rant and rant about us not giving reasons or not responding to arguments.  What they really mean is that we don't offer reasons or arguments that they agree with.  In fact, we could give them reasons and arguments until we are blue (or red?) in the face, and they would say the same thing because they disagree with our basic assumptions about how the world should work.

Welcome to war, friends.  As imax so aptly put it, "Pfft."

You may as well just read this, then.

Imax, that had nothing to do with the prvious point of hypocracy, which still stands, but to address your "analogy" - how would you feel given the following:

You have a house. All of your family has lived in this house for quite some time, and they call it a home. Your neighbor has tried to break into your house for many years and has killed members of your family while a family feud raged (Hatfield-McCoy style), but you have finally made peace. However, your neighbor has left several bombs scattered around the perimiter of your house, and if they go off, your house, as well as your family will die. One day you decide to build a blast shelter in your back yard, and when your neighbor realizes that you are nearly done, he detonates the bombs he has places as quickly as he can. Your home is destroyed. The patriarch of the family dies, as do several of the children, but some manage to make it to the blast shelter before the bombs go off and are unharmed.

Or wouldn't you have built the bomb shelter when you saw that your house was surrounded by bombs?

The Matrix is as much the home of humanity as it is the home of the Machine. Why? The Machine does not exist solely within the Matrix - as a matter of fact, it exists primarily outside of the Matrix. The majority of humanity lives in the Matrix. Many who live outside of the Matrix now were once its residents. But never have the Machines existed solely within the Matrix.

To the Machine the Matrix is nothing but a field. But do you justify eating the crops when you know they can think, feel, speak? When they tell you they do not want to be a "crop" for consumption? The Machines are cannibal owners of a jail. They eat the prisoners, and the prisoners have no say in the matter.

But, moreover, how can you claim to care about the wellfare of bluepills when all you see them as is a crop?

cov wrote:

To recap, Machinists believe that it's okay for human beings to live out their entire lives immersed in a bath of liquified human remains being fed a steady diet of electromagnetic lies by an artificial intelligence.  I and many others, on the other hand, believe that this is ghoulish and perverse, and that we can do better than settling for merely being the host for a parasitic race of Machines . . . even if we have to make our way in a world that has been destroyed by people fighting an ancient war we had nothing to do with.

This is a fundamental disagreement that neither side is open to persuasion about.  This disagreement is why Machinists rant and rant about us not giving reasons or not responding to arguments.  What they really mean is that we don't offer reasons or arguments that they agree with.  In fact, we could give them reasons and arguments until we are blue (or red?) in the face, and they would say the same thing because they disagree with our basic assumptions about how the world should work.

Welcome to war, friends.  As imax so aptly put it, "Pfft."

I whole heartedly agree with the text highlighted in red. As for the rest... Just another weapon you like to use in your word wars. It was taken entirely out of context and humans like doing that to each other in order to gain an advantage over their opponent.

Sleeping in a pod living in a world exactly like the one that existed before it was destroyed. People going to work, making money, becoming successful or failing at life just like the life humans threw away. People laughing and crying together. Going to the movies, even people playing MMOs together from all over the far corners of the simulation ((hehe)) But you would choose to ignor that part and only focus on the part that those same humans never know about and are completely oblivious. Yea yea there were those who figured it out, and guess what, the machines let you take them out and live in the other world, but that privilege was abused to no end therefor you have been cut off.

As you so aptly put it "Welcome to war, friends"

You may as well just read this, then.

Imax, that had nothing to do with the prvious point of hypocracy, which still stands, but to address your "analogy" - how would you feel given the following:

You have a house. All of your family has lived in this house for quite some time, and they call it a home. Your neighbor has tried to break into your house for many years and has killed members of your family while a family feud raged (Hatfield-McCoy style), but you have finally made peace. However, your neighbor has left several bombs scattered around the perimiter of your house, and if they go off, your house, as well as your family will die. One day you decide to build a blast shelter in your back yard, and when your neighbor realizes that you are nearly done, he detonates the bombs he has places as quickly as he can. Your home is destroyed. The patriarch of the family dies, as do several of the children, but some manage to make it to the blast shelter before the bombs go off and are unharmed.

Or wouldn't you have built the bomb shelter when you saw that your house was surrounded by bombs?

The Matrix is as much the home of humanity as it is the home of the Machine. Why? The Machine does not exist solely within the Matrix - as a matter of fact, it exists primarily outside of the Matrix. The majority of humanity lives in the Matrix. Many who live outside of the Matrix now were once its residents. But never have the Machines existed solely within the Matrix.

To the Machine the Matrix is nothing but a field. But do you justify eating the crops when you know they can think, feel, speak? When they tell you they do not want to be a "crop" for consumption? The Machines are cannibal owners of a jail. They eat the prisoners, and the prisoners have no say in the matter.

But, moreover, how can you claim to care about the wellfare of bluepills when all you see them as is a crop?

I just found it amusing that imax referred to the extraction of Blues as a privilege. Not to side with Zionites, but I don't see it as a privilege at all. To have something be presented as a privilege, we'd have to submit to your authority in the first place. This was never the case. Even before the Merovingian was an option for operatives, we were extracting humans based only on their readiness to exit the simulation. When the Machines decided to stop hindering extraction efforts, that was something that didn't effect our logic in awakening Bluepills - only the ease at which we could do it.

Maybe your masters allow the extraction of Blue's as a privilege, but neither Merovingian operatives or Zionite operatives refer to the Machines as any sort of authority. Therefore, we'll extract as many as we *CENSORED* well please. If you have a problem with us, try to stop it. I can guarantee you that even if you were to succeed, we'd make sure that it was at a high price.

It doesn't seem logical to hinder extraction efforts if you're going to expend more resources (operatives) in the end than you would, if you achieved your goal. There is no reward for ending extractions. So either the Machines are operating under flawed logic, or they view their human operatives as completely expendable.

imax wrote:

cov wrote:

To recap, Machinists believe that it's okay for human beings to live out their entire lives immersed in a bath of liquified human remains being fed a steady diet of electromagnetic lies by an artificial intelligence.  I and many others, on the other hand, believe that this is ghoulish and perverse, and that we can do better than settling for merely being the host for a parasitic race of Machines . . . even if we have to make our way in a world that has been destroyed by people fighting an ancient war we had nothing to do with.

This is a fundamental disagreement that neither side is open to persuasion about.  This disagreement is why Machinists rant and rant about us not giving reasons or not responding to arguments.  What they really mean is that we don't offer reasons or arguments that they agree with.  In fact, we could give them reasons and arguments until we are blue (or red?) in the face, and they would say the same thing because they disagree with our basic assumptions about how the world should work.

Welcome to war, friends.  As imax so aptly put it, "Pfft."

I whole heartedly agree with the text highlighted in red. As for the rest... Just another weapon you like to use in your word wars. It was taken entirely out of context and humans like doing that to each other in order to gain an advantage over their opponent.

Sleeping in a pod living in a world exactly like the one that existed before it was destroyed. People going to work, making money, becoming successful or failing at life just like the life humans threw away. People laughing and crying together. Going to the movies, even people playing MMOs together from all over the far corners of the simulation ((hehe)) But you would choose to ignor that part and only focus on the part that those same humans never know about and are completely oblivious. Yea yea there were those who figured it out, and guess what, the machines let you take them out and live in the other world, but that privilege was abused to no end therefor you have been cut off.

As you so aptly put it "Welcome to war, friends"

I just found it amusing that imax referred to the extraction of Blues as a privilege. Not to side with Zionites, but I don't see it as a privilege at all. To have something be presented as a privilege, we'd have to submit to your authority in the first place. This was never the case. Even before the Merovingian was an option for operatives, we were extracting humans based only on their readiness to exit the simulation. When the Machines decided to stop hindering extraction efforts, that was something that didn't effect our logic in awakening Bluepills - only the ease at which we could do it.

Maybe your masters allow the extraction of Blue's as a privilege, but neither Merovingian operatives or Zionite operatives refer to the Machines as any sort of authority. Therefore, we'll extract as many as we *CENSORED* well please. If you have a problem with us, try to stop it. I can guarantee you that even if you were to succeed, we'd make sure that it was at a high price.

It doesn't seem logical to hinder extraction efforts if you're going to expend more resources (operatives) in the end than you would, if you achieved your goal. There is no reward for ending extractions. So either the Machines are operating under flawed logic, or they view their human operatives as completely expendable.

Ha-ha!  You hypocrite!  In the above post you try to dismiss our arguments by saying that we dismiss your arguments, and then in your very next post you do nothing but dismiss my argument!  You obvious hypocrite! You don't counter my argument because you CAN'T because WE ARE RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG and in your heart you KNOW it, otherwise you would address my points one by one instead of attempting to to dismiss them en masse. 

All organizations do things which aren't morally right. Each organization has done questionable things in the past. There will always be things in which people simply can't defend. I'd be suprised if there was a Machinist out there who could honestly say that they felt certain things could have been handled or dealt with better in the past. Equally I'd be suprised if any Zionite or member of EPN could honestly do the same. Which leads us into limbo, with a swings-and-roundabouts arguement in which each side will bring up the others discrepancies from the past, and ultimately leads us no-where...suprisingly.

But Zionites so very readily took the privilege of awakening them without direct intervention from the Machines, therefore accepting the Machines as the authority of the simulation and started to wake the 1%. Sure they were doing it beforehand but only in small amounts, considerably less than the 1% who rejected the system until Neo came along for a few months. Logic doesn't have anything having the privilege to extract with no recourse. And as I have previously mentioned before, just because Zion has had the privilege taken away does not inhibit Machinists to do so if we wish. The systems stance on the Merovingian waking bluepills, if he ever sanctions such an act, would most likely be the same as Zion.

Humans only physically stay in the pods, they 'live' out their lives within the simulation not knowing any different then what our ancestors knew. They would in all likelihood lead out a better mental existence there than in the real.

No, the flaw in machinist thought is the same as the thought of our enemies.  We believe so firmly that our path is right that sometimes we refuse to see the truth.  We refuse to admit fault and defiantly argue otherwise.

We are all human here.  We are bound to mistakes, arrogance, ambition, greed, pride and self-delusion.  As a result we often do no see our errors and thus we are bound to repeat them.

The Machines have made mistakes.  They have done things that our society finds morally unjust.  They have done things that have made the most talkative, speechless.  However, they are not the only ones.  We all have our sins to bear whether we see them or hide them from sight.

Am I blind to continue to follow them?  No.  Everyone is subject to mistakes, even those who live by logic.  However, nothing is ever gained by giving up.  Anything worth having is worth fighting for.  So you could say that machinists aren't so different from anyone else.  We firmly believe that if we remain with the Machines, a difference can be made.  We can learn from each other if we work with each other.  That's practically our motto.

No one is perfect.  Accept it and move forward.  Together we can grow.  That's what a machinist truly believes.

We have forgiven the Machines.  It's time to forgive ourselves and move forward.  Otherwise, someone's tremendous sacrifice was all in vain.

Hmmm. . .

I have been giving this much thought lately. Why, if we all agree that establishing a true and lasting peace is the only way we can all survive, are we still arguing?

I can only arrive at one answer. Which, all things being equal, only leads to another question: where is the Oracle?

You see, I've reached the conclusion that where we (humans and Machines) are today can be laid at the feet of the Mother of the Matrix. She has been pulling everyone's strings since the day she met Morpheus, and probably earlier. We've been dancing this marionette's dance to her tune for so long that we've forgotten who's been leading this thing.

In any case, I'll leave you with a few quotes from the Oracle that are germane to the current conversation and the argument as a whole.

"Memory's a funny thing. Sometimes it seems like people remember everything anybody's ever said to them...but only in a certain context.

People are pretty good at remembering things I tell them most of the time, though--means I have to be careful with what I say. I suppose I'm used to it by now.

That's another funny thing: they'll remember what I say, even if they don't know what it meant. Not that I'm complaining, mind you."

"Some people listen; some people don't. Some of those who listen hear what you tell them; most hear what they want to hear. Some of them who heard understand; some don't get it.

Just another part of playing the odds."

"New day, same old questions: Neo, Morpheus, Smith... Anome may have gone off the deep end because he couldn't accept reality, but how many people have I met who won't accept that Neo is gone--that Morpheus is gone? Do I consider them crazy? Hm... Well, maybe a few of them. But having hope might not be such a bad kind of crazy, after all."

"People want power. It's been that way for a long time, as far as I can tell, and I don't expect it will change any time soon. The Matrix was supposed to keep people from getting power--real power--but then we had to throw the 1% wrinkle in, and here we are. Is it worth it? The 1%, the One--they were all supposed to stop deaths, stop the killing. Oh, not of the 1%, of course--they were written off anyway--but the other ninety-nine. But nowadays we have things like code bombs and super-powered Unlimit killing bystanders left and right. Oh, sure, they get taken care of eventually, but other problems will come along in the same way.

The Machines think they can fix the problem by getting more control. But the more you prevent people from getting power, the harder they'll try. What can we do? None of the obvious paths seem possible: remove the power, remove the people, or change the people. Can we do any of those? Should we? Boy, this is a real stumper."

"The Matrix is a place with an awful lot of personality. That's part of what fools a lot of people, you know; they don't think that a computer simulation could possibly have so many real characters in it. It's taken a whole lot of tinkering, but we've managed it, although I'll admit that we may have a few kinks left to work out. The Architect may have gone a little overboard when he allowed for the creation of the Merovingian's personality, for instance.

But that's what we get for trying to emulate humans, I suppose: unpredictability. Anyway, our various high-profile personalities seem to keep our guests amused, and they--the humans, I mean--give us some pretty interesting characters to study in return. They're always asking about the Merovingian, or Seraph, or Sati, or even me; but they also want to know about Niobe, and Morpheus--who I don't think they'll ever forget--and the rest. They argue over them, even fight over them, and, of course, over each other.

It's possible that without personalities involved, we might not have the threat of war. But without personality, would there be anything worth fighting for?"

"I realized the other day that I hadn't really asked anyone what they think of the Truce--not about how successful or unsuccessful it is, but how they feel about it. See, I know that many people believe in it very strongly, but some don't. They may see it as a sham, an obstacle, a compromise... Everybody has their own take on it.

Peace can be more confusing than war. It's harder to take sides. Maybe that's why some try so hard to break it."

"It's funny how sometimes if you just sit down and talk to someone, things will clear right up.

Take these E Pluribus Neo folks, for example. Big, tough "terrorists," right? Well, I don't know. I try not to categorize people, at least not before I've had a chat with them. Sit 'em down, ask 'em just what it is they're after, and you start to realize that maybe things aren't as gosh-darned complicated as they looked when everyone was running around with guns blazing.

The thing is, people don't usually take the time to stop and try to figure out what it is they're really after, and they don't realize that most people are pretty much after the same things, when you drill right down to it. Put those two types of misunderstanding together, give one group something the other doesn't have, and boy, you've got trouble. Happens every time.

So I had a chat with them. We talked about some pretty surprising things, too. Will it make a difference? That depends on what they decide to do. Maybe followers of Neo are just gonna repeat his mistakes no matter what. Could do worse, I suppose. Good intentions won't always pull you through by themselves...but they're not a bad start."

Vinia wrote:

But Zionites so very readily took the privilege of awakening them without direct intervention from the Machines, therefore accepting the Machines as the authority of the simulation and started to wake the 1%. Sure they were doing it beforehand but only in small amounts, considerably less than the 1% who rejected the system until Neo came along for a few months. Logic doesn't have anything having the privilege to extract with no recourse. And as I have previously mentioned before, just because Zion has had the privilege taken away does not inhibit Machinists to do so if we wish. The systems stance on the Merovingian waking bluepills, if he ever sanctions such an act, would most likely be the same as Zion.

Humans only physically stay in the pods, they 'live' out their lives within the simulation not knowing any different then what our ancestors knew. They would in all likelihood lead out a better mental existence there than in the real.

These are assumptions, and you know what happens when we make assumptions. The flaw in the Machinist human thought is the attempt to anticipate what the Machine sees fit in regards to situations like this based on speculation. You're probably right in that they may treat attempted extractions by the Merovingian opts the same way as Zion. But that's because they don't want more of their "crop" in Zion or anywhere else. There was no clause given that states that their own can do whatever the hell they want. Colonel Sanders said "No more extractions are allowed." Furthermore, a "better mental existence" is subjective. To the viewpoints of the Machine and people that share their interests, sure it's better. But to those of us that still believe in what IS wrong with their lie and why we rejected it, don't necessarily think so.

To recap, Machinists believe that it's okay for human beings to live out their entire lives immersed in a bath of liquified human remains being fed a steady diet of electromagnetic lies by an artificial intelligence.  I and many others, on the other hand, believe that this is ghoulish and perverse, and that we can do better than settling for merely being the host for a parasitic race of Machines . . . even if we have to make our way in a world that has been destroyed by people fighting an ancient war we had nothing to do with.

We don't say it's ok.  We accept that it's necessary for the survival of our species, in this world that can no longer support us all.  We don't say that the humans of today deserve to be punished because of what our ancestors did...but we do acknowledge that our current situation is a result of the actions of our ancestors, and that this situation is unlikely to change until the real world can support us (all of us, not just the tiny portion of humanity that's taken or is ready to take the red pill). 

I'm tired of all the whining about how we don't deserve this.  Of *course* people don't deserve to be punished for something that was done centuries before they were born!  But people do have to live with the consequences of those earlier actions...and those actions of our ancestors blackened the sky and destroyed the ecosystem.  This is the situation we have to live with.  So until someone comes up with a way to unscorch the sky, humanity is going to stay right where it is.

If all you focus on is your own self pity and anger, you will never be able to do anything constructive about that situation -- you will never be able to help make things better, for yourself or for the rest of humanity.  Instead of wasting your energy like this, why not work towards clearing the sky?

Illyria 

As for what the Machines and Machinists don't like, I don't think the majority of us give a sh!t. We don't like it when the Machine comes to fugg our home up, but it still happens.

Pyraci wrote:

As for what the Machines and Machinists don't like, I don't think the majority of us give a sh!t. We don't like it when the Machine comes to fugg our home up, but it still happens.

Then the best option would be to be cool, and behave. I know not all zionists are rageing lunatics like Anome, however the possibility is a great one. Since the truce began the machines havent done anything to harm or make the humans think they would harm them. Then came the command center beneath the powerlines. You got what you deserved.

imax wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

As for what the Machines and Machinists don't like, I don't think the majority of us give a sh!t. We don't like it when the Machine comes to fugg our home up, but it still happens.

Then the best option would be to be cool, and behave. I know not all zionists are rageing lunatics like Anome, however the possibility is a great one. Since the truce began the machines havent done anything to harm or make the humans think they would harm them. Then came the command center beneath the powerlines. You got what you deserved.

Therein lies the problem. The Machine has and is still doing and allowing things to harm people in the name of purpose, efficiency, and self-preservation. Tell someone else to "be cool and behave." Obedience isn't peace, it's submission. Submission and peace are not the same, even if both calm the fighting down for a time. I think it's a waste of breath to tell us to get out and be obedient, while you've got a guy in your system that isn't interested in obedience to the Machine, and shows that he doesn't need to answer to anyone. Machines can't control him or stop him, nor can Machinists, and he's more interested in the idea of people being freed than submission. You're getting what YOU deserve.

Obedience in this case is simply cooperation. The machines obeyed the truce, Zion and EPN did not. The machines only wanted you to do what they were doing.... submitting to the truce, not to them. But that time is now over since Zion repeadetly has shown no intrest in cooperation.

I think were going in circles again.

I think it's obvious at this point that you two are just arguing for the sake of arguing.  You're getting absolutely nothing accomplished, save for wasted breath. (Good read though!)

As far as the Intruder is concerned, Ez, don't assume he's on your side just because he's not too compliant with the Machines.  This may turn out to be a problem for both sides. 

Lastly, as far as what we all deserve...may there be mercy on us all.

I think it's obvious at this point that you two are just arguing for the sake of arguing.  You're getting absolutely nothing accomplished, save for wasted breath. (Good read though!)

As far as the Intruder is concerned, Ez, don't assume he's on your side just because he's not too compliant with the Machines.  This may turn out to be a problem for both sides. 

Lastly, as far as what we all deserve...may there be mercy on us all.

That may be so but you implied that he's deservedly our problem.  I merely stated that he may be both our problem. 

Debate the war and whose right/wrong all you want.  It's wasted breath.  Obviously if we could agree, we wouldn't be on opposing sides of the fence.  Right? 

You're preaching to the choir now, Ez. 

((OMG, Go get laid or something, Ez!! ))

Garu is not my friend...... 

jk <3 garu

but to clear things up hear, I did not start the argument on whos wrong and whos not. This did...

Pyraci wrote:

cov wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

But Pyraci's got the idea right - the Accelerated Man's got an iron resolve and he's not about t kowtow to anybody. If he's got questions, he's going to be here until he gets answers.

And I'm going to do what I can to help him. Seems like Zion and EPN are of the same mind, too.

I'm sure it's as obvious to the Intruder as it is to everyone else that Zion and EPN just want to use him as a weapon against the Machines...just like Zion wanted to use the General as a weapon against whoever they thought was their enemy that week.  I'm sure this will work out just as well for Zion.

Illyria

It's not surprising that the Machines' apologists try to diminish the potential tactical significance of the Intruder, even as those same apologists are kept completely out of the loop by the Machines. I'm sure that this blind faith in the Machines' mercy/beneficence/victimhood (or however Machinists justify their allegiance this week) will work out just super.

In any event, I suspect the Intruder is not likely to allow itself to be "used" by anyone, as a weapon or otherwise.  At the same time, anything that can level a pack of Agents with a snap of its fingers is something I'd like to get to know a little better.

Exactly, and while we're on the subject, the Machine and it's Machinists use their resources and assets to their advantage with disturbing tenacity. I think it's a little hypocritical to try to call Zion or EPN out as using anyone or anything as a weapon when the other side of the fence does it without remorse.

 Honestly, Machinists, just calm down, take a break, get some coffee. Seriously you will never convince Zionites/Neonites that you are right at all, because your beliefs are not agreeable to us and never will be.

 My Fellow Zionites and Neonites, there really is no point in arguing with the Machinists, they are convinced of their Beliefs, But we are as well, hence why we clash. Do Not Let the Cypherites discourage you, their efforts are wasted because they are trying to prevent the inevitable, we will contact the Intruder. Besides the Intruder must be understood, for one must study the enemy and know his objectives, if he is to be defeated, assuming hs's our enemy.

 Honestly, Machinists, just calm down, take a break, get some coffee. Seriously you will never convince Zionites/Neonites that you are right at all, because your beliefs are not agreeable to us and never will be.