Peace, The Truce, Negotiations

This thread is intended as a civil discussion of the current situation. I am initiating it, because, quite frankly I don't fully understand it, nor how we got here. I am going to post some questions and comments, with the hopes that those with a more full knowledge will answer and engage in dialog. As such, please feel free to express your position on these issues, but try to refrain from anger. There are plenty of other places to vent your feelings. What I am looking for is a discourse on the facts of this situation.

The main facts I would like to ascertain have to do with the Truce itself. The fact that it is over does not change my questions, nor their relevance, at least to me (and I belive others as well). so...

1) What were the terms of the Truce to begin with?

Does anyone know? As Zion has apparently broken it, it would be nice to know exactly how.

2)A related question: How was the truce negotiated in the first place? While it is clear that somehow Neo managed it, does anyone know for certain what bargaining chip he had with the Machines? Have they revealed this information?

It must have been considerable, as they were within hours of wiping out Zion completely. And i am not refering to speculations here. We all have our ideas, but none of us were there with Neo when the arrangement was made. I am talking explicitly about what information the Machines have delivered regarding the Truce and its formation, as they are the only ones who possess it.

3) What is the level of involvement between the Machines and Cypherites, Zion and EPN?

Because if the rumors are true, then the Truce ended long ago, and I'm still not sure who ended it.

4) Why was there absolutely no discussion or negotiation regarding the recent end to the Truce?

It would appear that a unilateral decision was made to end it. Although the answers to the previous questions affect this.

These are my questions. Clearly, most of them should be addressed directly to the Machines. I would still be interested in hearing others ideas, especially Machinist Operatives who may be privy to some of this.

My purpose in asking them is to encourage open dialog, and hopefully new peace talks. There are many people and groups talking about it these days. While it may be helpful to form new groups or organizations to promote peace, it would also be critical to bring the party's that already exist to the table.

Thank you.

1) What were the terms of the Truce to begin with?

Zion is allowed to free humans apart of the 1% without being hunted by the Machine. That was all and was left way to open.

2) How was the truce negotiated in the first place?

Oracle and Architect after Smith was defeated. Neo only told Deus Ex Machina that he wanted peace and it is unknown if anything else was said after that.

3) What is the level of involvement between the Machines and Cypherites, Zion and EPN?

The Cypherite org was created by the Machines for the purpose of hindering Zion awakenings. The Machine feared that Zion was awakening more then just the allowed 1%. 

EPN was created by ex Zionites in retaliation of Cryptos claming that Neo wanted everyone to stay asleep in their pods. The two were not invovleved with each other but did lend a hand in certain situations (Cypherites and the Oracle's protection to name a few)

4) Why was there absolutely no discussion or negotiation regarding the recent end to the Truce?

As I understood it peace was only to be renegociated by the Machine once Zion returned to their old city. Sense the city is now gone I'm not sure if that still stands.

Zion was allowed to free the 1% of humanity that would choose to take the red pill - they could not, however, be outright told what the matrix is, forced to awaken, or anything like that. Richland was considered a free zone - zionites would have to obtain access keys for the outer districts.  The

2)A related question: How was the truce negotiated in the first place? While it is clear that somehow Neo managed it, does anyone know for certain what bargaining chip he had with the Machines? Have they revealed this information?

 Neo asked the Machines for peace in exchange for defeating Smith. The Oracle and Archie hammered out the specifics.

3) What is the level of involvement between the Machines and Cypherites, Zion and EPN?

The Machines overwrote various reds and some bluepills to gather data on Zion. They also created the Cypherites as a means to prevent Zion from awakening more than the alloted 1% - a sort of legal loophole, depending on your point of view. It suppose could be argued that the Cypherites prolonged the Truce... but I would disagree with that.  However, Zion action against the Cypherites was not considered a truce violation.

Interestingly, the Machine 3.2 missions suggested that Gray was unaware that the Cypherites were the same group under Cryptos's controll untill 3.2.5, implying that a lot of their activities were done independantly from machine orders.

 EPN was created by The Kid to counter the Cypherite movement. However, some overzealous EPN members detonated code bombs in the immediate vicinity of bluepills, forcibly awakening (and presumably killing) them. The Zion council disowned EPN for their actions and gave the Machines free reign to eliminate them.  Zion discontinued its own anti-EPN activities, for fear of angering their population.

4) Why was there absolutely no discussion or negotiation regarding the recent end to the Truce?

The Machine policy boils down to this: they will negotiate with Zion if they lay down their arms and stop fighting.

Thanks to all!

There are many pieces of inofrmation here that I was not aware of, especially the 1% part. They raise more questions, and I'll try to stay in order of the subjects I broached (my apologies, as this was probabaly too many questions at once).

1) It would appear that the only term on which there is agreement so far is a 1% cap on Awakenings (I am still uncertain if this was "In Writing", but i'll let that go for now). If this is true, it raises the question- What exactly is the population of the Matrix? I'm guessing in the billions. Do you know what 1% of a billion is? 10 MILLION PEOPLE!!!! I have some serious doubts that Zion has freed even 10 thousand, let alone ten million!((there would be a hellavu lot more people playin the game eh? lol)). And this would have to be translated into a yearly quota to be effective. (I'm not even going to explore the fact that the Machines can probly breed enough etxra people, and control death rates sufficiently to compensate anyway!) In any case, without population numbers and a yearly quota, this is a meaningless term. How can Zion obey it if they have no idea what target they're shooting for? This needs data, or should I say needed data 21/2 years ago.

And as far as New Zion goes, again there seems to be no explicite terms delineated here. I suppose the Machines could view a new city as a minor threat. However, as counterpoint, the Machines had just recently demonstrated that they could obliterate the old Zion. Even given the Truce it was in no way secure (especially from the Cypherites!). Is the Machine City secure? I'd put my entire info savings on it! But i didn't see Zion claiming that the Machines having a secure city was a violation of the Truce, eh? Again, without the terms of the Truce spelled out, how can Zion have known this would be a violation? So far, no one from Zion has responded to say their understanding, so perhaps they knew and simply violated, but thats not the sense I have here.

2) Most of those are rumors I am familiar with. However, I was hoping for some explicit confirmation. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that the Machines would want to reveal whatever weakness it was that Neo used ot Bargain, so I may have to settle for rumor. ((seriously folks, all the answers I see here come from the Movies, from scenes which, in character, we were not privy too. Even the part of the Oracle and Architect negotiating. No Operative from any organization can have this as direct knowledge, unless told so by the Machines and/or the Oracle.))

3) These are the kinds of rumors that i have been hearing, and that concern me. My main conclusion is this: The Machines appear to approve of and support, if not directly control, the activities of the Cypherites. I say appear because they seem to outwardly keep a distance. However, if they have been directing them, then it seems clear that the Machines have been in violation of the Truce for quite some time. Zion on the other hand has openly denounced EPN, and does not seem to directly control them (at least prior to the Truce' demise). I do not know if this is also only for show, but I have not heard rumors to the contrary.

4) What hostilities did Zion need to stop at the time the Truce ended? Was having a New Zion regarded as hostilities? How could Zion be expected to lay down its arms when the Cyph's were letting off bombs in the middle of the Old City? I will admit that since that time, Zion command has authorized a number of direct attacks on Agents and the like, but, seriously, you can't kill Agents! (Overall, I think our commands response to this situation has been stupid. Yes we need to secure personnel and information, but blatant hostilities are foolish.)

Clearly, I think there are some key issues here: ignorance, stubborness, and stupidity. I am going to go out on a limb and say the following:

Since there were never clear terms, THERE NEVER WAS A TRUCE! There was a Cease Fire. The Machines have ended it, and have seemed intent on doing so for quite some time. So if anyone in Command from either Org would like to correct me here, stating when and in what means the Truce was actually defined, Please do so!

Till then, I remain sadly dissapointed in the Diplomatic skill being (not) demonstrated on both sides here.

1.a) What is the population of the Matrix?

300 Million. The Merv recently did alot of digging to discover how much energy the pods are really sending out and  300 million was the number of humans within the pods they determined.

1.b) Why is New Zion a threat?

The terms of the truce was that Zion was allowed to free the one percent without fear of being attacked. Zion's vunerablity was the Machine's way of controling Zion and makeing sure they stuck to it. With the creation of New Zion that control was eliminated and it was feared that because New Zion was a safer area then the old city that Zion would not stick to just the 1% but free who ever they could.

2) Neo was the only one that could defeat Smith. That was his chip

3) The Machine was in control of the Cypherite organization. It used them to spy on Zion and hinder recruiting done by Zion. Did this violate the truce? Yes indirectly it does but sadly they used one of the many loop holes in the truce to get away with it. Same with rewriteing Zion operitves. Also you have to look at the position Zion was in up untill New Zion came along. If war had broken out sooner the city would have been long gone years ago.

4) None, the Machine saw the building of New Zion as a potential threat and under the assumption that Zion would not stick to its end of the truce, it was called off.

1.a) What is the population of the Matrix?

300 Million. The Merv recently did alot of digging to discover how much energy the pods are really sending out and  300 million was the number of humans within the pods they determined.

1.b) Why is New Zion a threat?

The terms of the truce was that Zion was allowed to free the one percent without fear of being attacked. Zion's vunerablity was the Machine's way of controling Zion and makeing sure they stuck to it. With the creation of New Zion that control was eliminated and it was feared that because New Zion was a safer area then the old city that Zion would not stick to just the 1% but free who ever they could.

2) Neo was the only one that could defeat Smith. That was his chip

3) The Machine was in control of the Cypherite organization. It used them to spy on Zion and hinder recruiting done by Zion. Did this violate the truce? Yes indirectly it does but sadly they used one of the many loop holes in the truce to get away with it. Same with rewriteing Zion operitves. Also you have to look at the position Zion was in up untill New Zion came along. If war had broken out sooner the city would have been long gone years ago.

4) None, the Machine saw the building of New Zion as a potential threat and under the assumption that Zion would not stick to its end of the truce, it was called off.

QFT

Though, I have a different interpretation on #2.

Neo's power comes from the Source, induced by the machines. (Each One chosen for their high level of intuition and deviance.) The difference between Neo and the other One's; Oracle's guidance, code in Oracle's cookies, Trinity? They said the path of the One was made by the many, so it could be a permutation of all these things and all Zionites around Neo.

Smith was 'freed' from the system, too. Therefore he was no longer bound by the rules of the system. This allowed him to 'balance the equation' as he was Neo's negative, as Oracle said.

That's my take on it.

GamiSB,

My question is still whether this is all direct information, or merely speculation.

1) I am aware of this figure and the Merovingian's research, but this is not conclusively the population of the Matrix. It might be a good estimate, in which case Zion would have to have liberated 3 MILLION PEOPLE. I am still extremely dubious that we have come anywhere near that. (Prior to the truce, Zions population was roughly 250,000 people, after 100 years of Awakenings, and live births in Zion, which in fact probably made up the bulk of the population. Even assuming a very high mortality rate, it is highly unlikely that Zion had extracted even half that number. Could we really have been awakening 3 million per year over the last 3 years, or even 1 million?that seems almost laughable)

Again, my main point here is without direct clarification of the Matrix population, and a defined yearly quota. This is not truly a Term. You cannot follow a guideline without knowing its details.

Also, it does seem likely that the Smith program had something to do with the Truce. Operatives such as Niobe, Ghost and Morpheus, and their Operators reported very unusual activity from this program in the final hours before the truce.

Again, however, I am looking for explicit confirmation from the Machines. What exactly did Neo negotiate?I have still not seen anyone verify where they derived their information on this, nor whether such information was provided to Zion command in establishing the truce 

2) Without fear of being attacked by who? The Machines? what about the Cypherites?

And again, was that spelled out in writing to Zion command?

Vesuveus,

Those are indeed some interesting ideas. I was not aware of these conversations with the Oracle, I would like to know more about who had them and when.((Of course i know the answer to this but I am attempting to RP this thread. In character neither I nor you were present at Neo's last interview with the Oracle, nor is there any In Movie evidence that he told anyone else its details. I could spend days discussiing the apparent answers to these questions OOC, but I really think that would belong in another thread, on some other board. I am explicitly attempting here to play an In Character response to the present situation in the Storyline))

Question # 4

What hostilities did Zion need to stop at the time the Truce ended?

Was having a New Zion regarded as hostilities?

How could Zion be expected to lay down its arms when the Cyph's were letting off bombs in the middle of the Old City?  

---

I'd like to hear the opinion of a machinist for #4, though.

4a) Up until New Zion was revealed there was only a suspicision brought about by intelligence reports.  With the exception of various problems originating from Zion (Anome, Morpheus & Assisting the General) they had remained fairly compliant.

4b) Yes.  New Zion introduced an unknown that the Machines could not calculate.  With absolutely no knowledge of its defensive/offensive capabilities, it was deemed a direct violation of the Truce in that there was no longer a means of regulating the number of awakenings Zion was permitted. 

4c) The raid on Old Zion was authorized when it became clear that Zion was working diligently to relocate their entire population and had no intentions of laying down their arms.

1) One, three and four are not speculation they are proven fact. two who really knows but from what we do know that is the most logical conclusion. 

The reason Zion hasn't reached 3 million is because we are still freeing people. We are no where near removeing all the potentials form the system. Also like the Matrix you have to account for birth and death rate. For every freeborn born their is one that dies and a redpills life is alot shorter now thanks to war.

2) The Machine. The truce was between Zion and the Machine and yes Zion knew that their end of the deal was only the 1%. It was one of the reasons they disowned EPN at the start.

Vesuveus,

Those are indeed some interesting ideas. I was not aware of these conversations with the Oracle, I would like to know more about who had them and when.((Of course i know the answer to this but I am attempting to RP this thread. In character neither I nor you were present at Neo's last interview with the Oracle, nor is there any In Movie evidence that he told anyone else its details. I could spend days discussiing the apparent answers to these questions OOC, but I really think that would belong in another thread, on some other board. I am explicitly attempting here to play an In Character response to the present situation in the Storyline))

((Hmm. IC I always attributed the knowledge we have as archival footage taken by the Neb's operators and minutes from the Counsel meetings. I'll get back to you with an IC explaination.)) 

Garu wrote:

4b) Yes.  New Zion introduced an unknown that the Machines could not calculate.  With absolutely no knowledge of its defensive/offensive capabilities, it was deemed a direct violation of the Truce in that there was no longer a means of regulating the number of awakenings Zion was permitted. 

4c) The raid on Old Zion was authorized when it became clear that Zion was working diligently to relocate their entire population and had no intentions of laying down their arms.

See, I have major problems with this:

4b. No regulations were ever given. So why would this be a problem?

4c. No intention of laying down arms? Are you F kidding me? ((IC, of course.)) With half a million sentinels circling Zion's gates, where was the Machine's  effort in laying down arms?

The arguement is null now that the Truce failed, but these are reasons why I chose EPN over the Machines when I left Zion. And I heavily considered both.

I'd like to raise the point of weaponry and defensive technologies. Obviously the Machines never disarmed. Matter of fact, it even seems like they've kept the warfactory going at a good, steady pace. 500,000 Sentinels poised to strike outside of Zion and growing since the formation of the Truce - great disarmerment. But another point to be made, perhaps one more interesting to the Machinist crowd, is that Zion never disarmed either, not even during the Truce.

Points:

1. Every Zion hovercraft is equipped with an EMP. Always have been, always will be. Even ships built during the Truce were outfitted with an EMP device. What reason would they have to believe that they could not continue to use these in a passive, defensive style, such as the mines laying outside of New Zion?

2. The Gates of Zion were never opened. We had peace, but the gates were never opened, the city never stripped of its greatest defense. This was never seen as a breach of the Truce.

3. APUs and defensive weaponry were never banned from Zion, thought it was obviously well-known that Zion had them, since they were used in the final battle before the Truce. What reason would Zion have to believe that they could not maintain such equipment at this site or another?

Therefore, how should any Zionite have seen pre-existing technology still in use being applied to a new situation as any breach of the Truce? How should any Machine see this as a breach of the Truce?

I'd like to raise the point of weaponry and defensive technologies. Obviously the Machines never disarmed. Matter of fact, it even seems like they've kept the warfactory going at a good, steady pace. 500,000 Sentinels poised to strike outside of Zion and growing since the formation of the Truce - great disarmerment. But another point to be made, perhaps one more interesting to the Machinist crowd, is that Zion never disarmed either, not even during the Truce.

Points:

1. Every Zion hovercraft is equipped with an EMP. Always have been, always will be. Even ships built during the Truce were outfitted with an EMP device. What reason would they have to believe that they could not continue to use these in a passive, defensive style, such as the mines laying outside of New Zion?

2. The Gates of Zion were never opened. We had peace, but the gates were never opened, the city never stripped of its greatest defense. This was never seen as a breach of the Truce.

3. APUs and defensive weaponry were never banned from Zion, thought it was obviously well-known that Zion had them, since they were used in the final battle before the Truce. What reason would Zion have to believe that they could not maintain such equipment at this site or another?

Therefore, how should any Zionite have seen pre-existing technology still in use being applied to a new situation as any breach of the Truce? How should any Machine see this as a breach of the Truce?

GamiSB- Actually, I'm going to have to defend this discussion as being extremely relevant. You've stated that it won't be meaningfull until we have real peace. How can we achieve a real peace without a functional treaty in place?

 This thread has explored the myriad of ways in which the previous treaty failed, and such exploration leaves us better educated about what to expect from future treatises. without such knowledge, wed be likely to walk into another peace that has no defined expectations, which would be ridiculous. In order to reach peace, the sides involved need to negotiate ALL of the necessary details and arrangements, and set a framework for resolving future issues. Knowing how we failed to do that the first time is, I believe, vital to getting it right the next time.

GamiSB wrote:

If you want to believe that minds more open tot he truth then even Neo's are out their go ahead but I'm afraid you will be disapointed when you find out their are none. Zion already makes it clear that it's no pleasure cruise that the potential is about to go on. Hell even bluepills can see how the Machine tries to keep this truth out of reach meaning their must be something their that isn't pretty. I can't understand why people insist on blameing Zion for every Cypher out there. Zion's been doing this for over 100 years now. Is it posible that just maybe it was the potential's fault? God forbid they be the ones who got in over their head and now have to pay the price.

In short, discussion over the problems of the truce is pointless now and Zion's system of awakening people is fine as it is. Maybe once we get a real peace we can reopen all this because only then would it even be worth concidering such ideas.

The system may be fine but that doesn't mean the people using it are fine.  All I see above is "Zion is right, everyone else needs to deal".  That's incredibly arrogant and selfish.

Both sides have made poor decisions caused by prejudice and ignorance.  Both sides presumed when all they needed to do was ask.  Both sides failed to proactively work towards furthering the Truce.  Both sides spent their time worrying about how the other would betray them and look at where we're at.

No truce, no peace, no future.  Congratulations, ignorance wins again.  Neo broke the cycle and we've successfully managed to mend it back together.  The key to the future is in cooperation, communication and the ability to reevaluate our methods by understanding where we failed in the past.

And for the record, I think that Zion is at least partially responsible for the Cypherites.  You take the risk of awakening someone who will resent you every time you offer the red pill.  It may be the machine's fault for organizing them but there wouldn't be anything to organize if they hadn't been awakened.  That's just the way I see it.

Your seeing what you want to see but that was not and is not my stand. I know first hand that Zion can screw up and has. But I also know first hand that many Cypherites choose that redpill because they truely wanted to know. Can't handle the truth then I'm sorry but you were warned. If you were force fed it or tricked into it then i'm sorry but their are other options then murder to being about justice. Zion wants radicals running their recuriting as much as the Cypherites do. Ever tried takeing your case up with the Council?

I agree that we did throw ourselves into this mess. But its the same thing. No one wants to take the blame and insist on pointing fingers at everyone but themselves.

I know first hand that Zion can screw up and has. But I also know first hand that many Cypherites choose that redpill because they truely wanted to know. Can't handle the truth then I'm sorry but you were warned.

It's natural for everyone to avoid responsibility.  We all feel justified that we are making the right decisions based on our beliefs.  To expect anyone to admit their ideals and methods were wrong is a bit too optimistic, even for me.  It happens but unfortunately not as often as it should.  Otherwise we might actually make some progress.

Getting back to our masked friends:

Would you be willing to say that everyone is properly warned to an extent that they should not be surprised when they awaken? 

GamiSB wrote:

I know first hand that Zion can screw up and has. But I also know first hand that many Cypherites choose that redpill because they truely wanted to know. Can't handle the truth then I'm sorry but you were warned.

It's natural for everyone to avoid responsibility.  We all feel justified that we are making the right decisions based on our beliefs.  To expect anyone to admit their ideals and methods were wrong is a bit too optimistic, even for me.  It happens but unfortunately not as often as it should.  Otherwise we might actually make some progress.

Getting back to our masked friends:

Would you be willing to say that everyone is properly warned to an extent that they should not be surprised when they awaken? 

That everyone is properly warned? No, thats a foolish ideal to believe could ever happen. Do I believe that most are warned to the extent they should be? Yes. As I mentiond before the extent of the truth makes it impossible to fully explain to someone what it is. Are their areas to expand on? Maybe but they would be hard to find without risking your credibility to they potential. We can't give them details of a broken baren wasteland and of Machine overlords. We can though exaplain that it is difficult to accept and not for the weak of heart. That you must be fully commented to wanting to find this truth and that you are risking everything you have ever known and can never go back.

That everyone is properly warned? No, thats a foolish ideal to believe could ever happen. Do I believe that most are warned to the extent they should be? Yes. As I mentiond before the extent of the truth makes it impossible to fully explain to someone what it is. Are their areas to expand on? Maybe but they would be hard to find without risking your credibility to they potential. We can't give them details of a broken baren wasteland and of Machine overlords. We can though exaplain that it is difficult to accept and not for the weak of heart. That you must be fully commented to wanting to find this truth and that you are risking everything you have ever known and can never go back.

I'm inclined to agree with much of what you've said.  The truth isn't easy.  I just can't be foolish enough not to empathize with the Cypherites a little, despite the fact that I don't agree with their methods.  I also think it's foolish for Zion to be surprised when those they awaken turn on them in the most violent of manners.  Some can handle the truth, some run from it.  That should always be kept in mind when offering the pills. 

At any rate I fear we may be verring too far from Psilody's topic.  Therefore I concede to discuss anything further unless it's related to the main topic, out of respect to the OP.

/formalbow 

Garu- Actually, you guys haven't really strayed to far off my topic at all. A number of the early posts in this thread suggested that part of the reason the Machines revoked the Truce was fear that they couldn't control how many people Zion was freeing. I also saw at least one post that suggested that NOT telling people the nature of the Matrix was also a stipulation of the "Treaty" (If there ever was one really).

I think we need to reevaluate how we go about freeing people, and some of that might involve a renegotian of this aspect of our relationship as well. I think that there are ways you could approach explaining to people the nature of the Matrix, if you have already identified them as being possible to awaken.

and Gami, I really think there are many people on all sides of this conflict who are interested in peace. The fact that Zion command and the Machine overlords are at a loggerhead is rather frustrating. But the more undercurrent we can generate, the more hope there is that these parties will become cognizant of how estranged they are from the poeple they claim to represent (err well, I guess the Machines don't represent any people, so yeah, I guess i'm focused here more on Zion command. I guess I'm also aiming at Machine Operatives who might be uncomfortable with the present situation, and could initiate some dialog with their superiors, for what its worth.)

Peace has to begin somewhere. We don't have Neo to just create it for us this time. That means we need to follow the traditional route of engaging in dialog, and trying to encourage understanding. I hope this dialog has contributed to that movement in some way.