[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07

48 posts · 2007-10-25 20:15:59 to 2007-10-26 18:41:54

#36300343071 10/25/2007 20:15:59 [8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07

 
We have our own reasons for that which we do, but if time preserves any trace of our existence, it is the deed, not the reason, that will be remembered.
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
#36300343074 10/25/2007 20:23:59 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07

Compliance is mandatory

JL10899sig
#36300343076 10/25/2007 20:26:20 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Interesting...

*rubs his chin with a puzzeled look on his face*
#36300343079 10/25/2007 20:30:49 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
#36300343080 10/25/2007 20:31:31 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Nice, love the last Image where they both are looking at the camera
#36300343081 10/25/2007 20:31:46 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07

#36300343094 10/25/2007 20:54:32 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Hmm... very interesting.
#36300343116 10/25/2007 21:31:27 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
...

This only further makes me wish to meet this man, Cryptos one day. Funny to actually hear that cross my own internal dialogue
#36300343125 10/25/2007 21:47:51 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
I really like how the story is going these days =D
Exciting possibilities are opening up for everyone. 
#36300343137 10/25/2007 22:08:10 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
I didn't think I'd ever hear myself say this, but Cryptos was actually making some sense... and his words aren't too far off what my own may have been had I had a conversation with the simulacrum.
#36300343170 10/26/2007 00:37:43 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Indeed, Cryptos seems to be, at the moment, a serene island in the middle of a typhoon, ironic really. I should like to have known what their private conversation was yet I don't believe details will be forthcoming. I'm sure we will hear bits and pieces of that dialogue in the near future. I still have to wonder what his ultimate goal is in all of this, Cryptos I mean, not the Sim. There must be more to it then removing his and other Cyph names from the archive....

((Great dialogue between the Sim and Cryptos the feeling of old camaraderie coming to the surface and yet still some distrusting also))
#36300343182 10/26/2007 01:52:30 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07

I am curious to hear what Crypticah has to say, but very skeptical. If Morpheus cannot remember his motives then any lie can be said. Thumbs down for Morpheus 'showing his cards'.

Don't lose the faith, teacher.

Two years of living the dream... and interpreting it! ~Variel
#36300343188 10/26/2007 03:36:19 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Vesuveus wrote:

I am curious to hear what Crypticah has to say, but very skeptical. If Morpheus cannot remember his motives then any lie can be said. Thumbs down for Morpheus 'showing his cards'.


Word. Cryptos hit the weak spot of the Morpheus Sim, his memories. Unlike Zion, who only asked him to aid them because of his memories, Cryptos wants to grant him answers to questions that arise from his memories.
Well played Cryptos, maybe. We'll see.

-GG
#36300343200 10/26/2007 05:08:20 [8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
(( Wrong chapter tag, pm sent. ))
#36300343219 10/26/2007 05:59:10 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
In the end, everyone must choose a side.  It is inevitable.
#36300343228 10/26/2007 06:19:51 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Garu wrote:
In the end, everyone must choose a side.  It is inevitable.

I agree.
#36300343243 10/26/2007 07:08:27 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
I found it quite interesting where Cryptos asked everyone else why they flaunt their flags. What is Cryptos' answer to that question. Why is he here? Nevertheless, I have faith in Morpheus as do I also have faith in this Sim. A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.
#36300343245 10/26/2007 07:10:04 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
NiChO wrote:
A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.
I have to agree with you there.  Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.
#36300343247 10/26/2007 07:25:42 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
ChloeAnn wrote:
Garu wrote:
In the end, everyone must choose a side.  It is inevitable.

I agree.

I disagree. This does not mean that Morpheus has sided with the Cypherites or the Machines. It means that the choice he made in this instance was in their favor. In fact if you notice Morpheus needed reasureing that Zion would be able to overcome this trial before he made his choice. A man can choose to eat an apple one day but still favor pears over appels can he not?
#36300343252 10/26/2007 07:37:05 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
GamiSB wrote:
I disagree. This does not mean that Morpheus has sided with the Cypherites or the Machines. It means that the choice he made in this instance was in their favor. In fact if you notice Morpheus needed reassuring that Zion would be able to overcome this trial before he made his choice. A man can choose to eat an apple one day but still favor pears over apples can he not?

He may no longer have a choice.  If he helps the Machines with this request, he will foresake Zion in the process.  His supply of pears may run out.
#36300343254 10/26/2007 07:44:27 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Garu wrote:
GamiSB wrote:
I disagree. This does not mean that Morpheus has sided with the Cypherites or the Machines. It means that the choice he made in this instance was in their favor. In fact if you notice Morpheus needed reassuring that Zion would be able to overcome this trial before he made his choice. A man can choose to eat an apple one day but still favor pears over apples can he not?

He may no longer have a choice.  If he helps the Machines with this request, he will foresake Zion in the process.  His supply of pears may run out.

There is always a choice even if one road is easier to take then the other. Morpheus is still not limited to only doing what the Machine says and can still find ways to help Zion. In fact I firmly believe that this event will help Zion more the hurt. Their military is now forced to reconfigure all there veteran operatives signals something that should have been done a long time ago for the very reasons we see now. Morpheus has taught Zion a hard but much needed lesson. Did he foresee this happening? Who's to say but he still cared enough for Zion to be sure that they could overcome this.

#36300343261 10/26/2007 08:03:46 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Garu wrote:
NiChO wrote:
A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.
I have to agree with you there.  Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.

But what if all those who know of the idea die, wouldn't the idea die with them?
#36300343262 10/26/2007 08:05:48 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
GamiSB wrote:

There is always a choice even if one road is easier to take then the other. Morpheus is still not limited to only doing what the Machine says and can still find ways to help Zion. In fact I firmly believe that this event will help Zion more than hurt. Their military is now forced to reconfigure all there veteran operatives signals something that should have been done a long time ago for the very reasons we see now. Morpheus has taught Zion a hard but much needed lesson. Did he foresee this happening? Who's to say but he still cared enough for Zion to be sure that they could overcome this.

Perhaps.  Only time will tell I suppose.  The choices we make are based on the choices already made by others.

#36300343265 10/26/2007 08:09:06 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Croesus wrote:
Garu wrote:
NiChO wrote:
A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.
I have to agree with you there.  Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.

But what if all those who know of the idea die, wouldn't the idea die with them?

There will always be people who choose to serve an idea.  An idea may diminish but it never truly dies.  Look at Zion.
#36300343272 10/26/2007 08:20:06 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Garu wrote:
Croesus wrote:
Garu wrote:
NiChO wrote:
A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.
I have to agree with you there.  Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.

But what if all those who know of the idea die, wouldn't the idea die with them?

There will always be people who choose to serve an idea.  An idea may diminish but it never truly dies.  Look at Zion.

Indeed but what if Zion and it's population were wiped from the face of the earth? Be it by the Machines or plague or natural disaster such as a cave-in? There would be no one to carry on such an idea. Other ideas may form and be similar, but everything dies... Nothing can stop the march of time.

((Lol, don't worry about me, when I start thinking philosophically I usually talk aloud, or in this case, write down my thoughts!!))
#36300343276 10/26/2007 08:27:31 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Croesus wrote:
Garu wrote:
Croesus wrote:
Garu wrote:
NiChO wrote:
A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.
I have to agree with you there.  Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.

But what if all those who know of the idea die, wouldn't the idea die with them?

There will always be people who choose to serve an idea.  An idea may diminish but it never truly dies.  Look at Zion.

Indeed but what if Zion and it's population were wiped from the face of the earth? Be it by the Machines or plague or natural disaster such as a cave-in? There would be no one to carry on such an idea. Other ideas may form and be similar, but everything dies... Nothing can stop the march of time.
Zion will not fall. However, this "What-If" mess could go on forever. This is a same scenario as:"If a tree hits the ground when no one is around, will it make a noise?" We all know that an idea, a belief, an emotional attachment towards something or someone will always be if it is pass along through poetry, memories, and/or an everlasting love. As expected. Take Neo for example.
#36300343277 10/26/2007 08:29:24 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Ok, but what about the previous versions of Neo, no one knew of him. Where did that idea go?
#36300343278 10/26/2007 08:30:35 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
GamiSB wrote:
ChloeAnn wrote:
Garu wrote:
In the end, everyone must choose a side.  It is inevitable.

I agree.

I disagree. This does not mean that Morpheus has sided with the Cypherites or the Machines. It means that the choice he made in this instance was in their favor. In fact if you notice Morpheus needed reasureing that Zion would be able to overcome this trial before he made his choice. A man can choose to eat an apple one day but still favor pears over appels can he not?
Morpheus is going Cyph! WOOHOO!!!
Bring out the champagne!

*gets wasted*
#36300343279 10/26/2007 08:30:48 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Croesus wrote:
Indeed but what if Zion and it's population were wiped from the face of the earth? Be it by the Machines or plague or natural disaster such as a cave-in? There would be no one to carry on such an idea. Other ideas may form and be similar, but everything dies... Nothing can stop the march of time.

As long as there are free minds, there will always be ideas.  Zion has been annihilated several times, yet it rises from the ashes to oppose the system every time. 
#36300343281 10/26/2007 08:33:30 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Garu wrote:
As long as there are free minds, there will always be ideas.  Zion has been annihilated several times, yet it rises from the ashes to oppose the system every time. 

Your right, it has, but that was because the Machines required it to be reformed, hence the One having to chose a few people after returning to the source to re-build Zion
#36300343286 10/26/2007 08:43:53 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
I'd say that if everyone who believes in an idea dies, the idea dies with them... for a time. If the idea was formed once, it may be formed again.

Taking Zion as an example again, Zion was destroyed, but it did the same thing six times in a row (no doubt with some small variances, sure, but nothing significantly different). The Machines orchestrated events so that the city's population would hold the same beliefs and have the same ideas with each iteration.
#36300343289 10/26/2007 08:45:51 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Reeverbs wrote:
Morpheus is going Cyph! WOOHOO!!!
Bring out the champagne!

*gets wasted*
Wouldn't celebrate too soon there, mate.

Croesus wrote:
Garu wrote:
As long as there are free minds, there will always be ideas.  Zion has been annihilated several times, yet it rises from the ashes to oppose the system every time. 

Your right, it has, but that was because the Machines required it to be reformed, hence the One having to chose a few people after returning to the source to re-build Zion

To a point, but not completely. Even if Zion were to be completely decimated and the cycle of control , there are people still born inside that will reject this place. There are people, like Michael, that will wake themselves from it. An idea will exist as long as there is someone (human or sentient), that takes a certain point of view of the world.

A free mind refuses to remain enslaved whether the Machine wants it to or not.


#36300343292 10/26/2007 08:47:06 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Croesus wrote:
Garu wrote:
As long as there are free minds, there will always be ideas.  Zion has been annihilated several times, yet it rises from the ashes to oppose the system every time. 

Your right, it has, but that was because the Machines required it to be reformed, hence the One having to chose a few people after returning to the source to re-build Zion


Quite right.  Though each time it becomes populated by citizens who all believe in the same idea as their predecessors despite having never met them.  Today there will be someone born into this world who shares the same ideas as myself or someone who believes as Zion does.

Our bodies can be broken but the ideas we have live on through others until the end of time or until no one believes in it anymore.

#36300343293 10/26/2007 08:54:02 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Ideas cannot die for the simple reason that others will have the same ideas which people had before them, even if it's in another form.

You can kill the people, but ideas are bulletproof, as the saying goes. There'll always be similar ideas as long as people have ideas.
#36300343295 10/26/2007 08:54:46 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Good points by all! SMILEY<img mce_tsrc= I guess I was trying to say that the same exact ideas from a man do not necessarily get passed on, but ideas born of of necessity and situation are generally very similar.

[EDIT]

Garu wrote:
Our bodies can be broken but the ideas we have live on through others until the end of time or until no one believes in it anymore.
Hehe, this is what I originally said in a round about way! This is what started the thread going of on the tangent its on now! I do hope we're not gonna be going around in circles! SMILEY

#36300343299 10/26/2007 08:57:06 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Croesus wrote:
Good points by all! SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I guess I was trying to say that the same exact ideas from a man do not necessarily get passed on, but ideas born of of necessity and situation are generally very similar.

I'm inclined to agree.  Ideas can change as some people embrace them differently than others.  But the core of the idea itself tends to survive.
#36300343373 10/26/2007 11:12:16 [8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
cloudwolf wrote:
(( Wrong chapter tag, pm sent. ))
Hmwah? Oh. Numbers...
#36300343375 10/26/2007 11:20:00 [8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Rarebit wrote:
cloudwolf wrote:
(( Wrong chapter tag, pm sent. ))
Hmwah? Oh. Numbers...

((*Explodes into a fit of giggles.*  Rarebit+Numbers=No?))
#36300343386 10/26/2007 11:34:15 Re:[8.3.4] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Procurator wrote:
I'd say that if everyone who believes in an idea dies, the idea dies with them... for a time. If the idea was formed once, it may be formed again.

Taking Zion as an example again, Zion was destroyed, but it did the same thing six times in a row (no doubt with some small variances, sure, but nothing significantly different). The Machines orchestrated events so that the city's population would hold the same beliefs and have the same ideas with each iteration.

((I think this is true in a OOC aspect, but while IC it is different.))

Those that do not understand an idea most of the time do not understand the everlasting life of it. Seeing is not always believing. Faith is beliefs true strength.
#36300343405 10/26/2007 12:31:35 Re:[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Quite a team, eh? A man with the mind of a machine, a machine with the mind of a man. And together, they may have brought about an end to this conflict.  Poetic, really.
#36300343409 10/26/2007 12:43:47 Re:[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
I think it's a little to early to celebrate... Zion has got a lot of fight left in them yet, yes the most experienced operatives are getting taken out of the equation but that leaves room for the more inexperienced, and while that may work in our favour also, it could just make them more tenacious, trying unanticipated plans etc.....
#36300343415 10/26/2007 12:54:15 Re:[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Croesus wrote:
I think it's a little to early to celebrate... Zion has got a lot of fight left in them yet, yes the most experienced operatives are getting taken out of the equation but that leaves room for the more inexperienced, and while that may work in our favour also, it could just make them more tenacious, trying unanticipated plans etc.....
Exactly what we'd need, should our lives be threatened again.
#36300343418 10/26/2007 13:01:37 Re:[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Any celebration on my part would be very reluctant.  Though I do not agree with Zion's policies I can hardly revel in their death. 
#36300343451 10/26/2007 14:23:17 Re:[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07

Morpheus the man was strong, both in will and intellect. He was not easily swayed nor manipulated.

Morpheus the program is indecisive, unproven, and unprepared. I have little faith in his ability to make sound decisions for the betterment of the human race.

Perhaps this program should be neutralized. . .permanently.

#36300343470 10/26/2007 14:45:39 Re:[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Morpheus the man was strong, both in will and intellect. He was not easily swayed nor manipulated.

Morpheus the program is indecisive, unproven, and unprepared. I have little faith in his ability to make sound decisions for the betterment of the human race.

Perhaps this program should be neutralized. . .permanently.


Morpheus the man was strong because his beliefs drifted into fanaticism.  He was not easily swayed or manipulated by facts or reason.  In the end, his fixation on the return of a corpse (not peace, or freedom for humanity) led not only to his own death, but to the deaths of many bluepills through his codebombs. 

Morpheus the program doesn't seem to have these faults, at least not yet.  He is trying to learn -- he knows he doesn't know everything, unlike the fanatic who believed there was nothing left to learn. 

Illyria

PS: I did predict that Zion/EPN would want the sim deleted if he didn't help them, no matter what the reasoning was behind it.

#36300343471 10/26/2007 14:47:07 Re:[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
((I think there is a lot more to both the Morpheus sim and Cryptos than we can see. I could almost expect them to plan something together))
#36300343527 10/26/2007 17:01:14 Re:[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
Illyria22 wrote:

Morpheus the man was strong because his beliefs drifted into fanaticism.  He was not easily swayed or manipulated by facts or reason.  In the end, his fixation on the return of a corpse (not peace, or freedom for humanity) led not only to his own death, but to the deaths of many bluepills through his codebombs. 

Morpheus the program doesn't seem to have these faults, at least not yet.  He is trying to learn -- he knows he doesn't know everything, unlike the fanatic who believed there was nothing left to learn. 

Illyria

PS: I did predict that Zion/EPN would want the sim deleted if he didn't help them, no matter what the reasoning was behind it.

Morpheus was strong because he followed the truth.  When confronted with the fact that the prophecy was a system of control that the Machines placed on humanity, he didn't want to believe it.  He eventually did come around to face the truth about the situation.  The One returning to the Source did not end the war.  It perilously came close to destroying humanity.  Only Neo's actions saved us all, Machine and Human alike.  You look down on people who base their actions on emotion and so dismiss them.  These people have their time and place that let them fit within society.  Without these people, who would drive us and keep pushing us to test ourselves?  Their passion is what has kept Zion going, fighting against all odds.  To keep fighting even when faced with certain death.

If Neo's body was considered as just a corpse by the Machines, why had they not even recycled it like they do with the other corpses of the dead?  Following the logic that is implied by your viewpoint, even the Machines were "fixated" on this, by their own standards.  You look at everything through a very jaded lens, and tend to think very one-sidedly.  You refuse to look at situations from the other side of the fence, and that thinking is what perpetuates this constant violence between blood and data.  Of course, I am not naive enough to think that there aren't people on this side who do the exact same thing, but certainly you have been one of the most vocal about it.

This simulation is not Morpheus, and can never be Morpheus.  It has proven that before, but now it is beyond a doubt since it has given up these RSI codes of our veterans.  He may yet grow into a fine creature, but the fact is that his place is not meant with Zion or with the Machines.  As someone else said before he is of a Machine with the mind of a Man, not fitting in with either.  I would be content with him living on his own aiding neither side, but unfortunately he has made his choice of aiding those who wish to kill us.  If he so chooses another life for himself, I would leave him alone.  Until then, he is a sworn enemy.  We shall see what his future holds.

-Cykosis

#36300343567 10/26/2007 18:41:54 Re:[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07
DAMMIT! ...SMILEY