We have our own reasons for that which we do, but if time preserves any trace of our existence, it is the deed, not the reason, that will be remembered.


48 posts · 2007-10-25 20:15:59 to 2007-10-26 18:41:54


Compliance is mandatory


I am curious to hear what Crypticah has to say, but very skeptical. If Morpheus cannot remember his motives then any lie can be said. Thumbs down for Morpheus 'showing his cards'.
Don't lose the faith, teacher.
I am curious to hear what Crypticah has to say, but very skeptical. If Morpheus cannot remember his motives then any lie can be said. Thumbs down for Morpheus 'showing his cards'.


In the end, everyone must choose a side. It is inevitable.
A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.I have to agree with you there. Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.
Garu wrote:In the end, everyone must choose a side. It is inevitable.
I agree.
I disagree. This does not mean that Morpheus has sided with the Cypherites or the Machines. It means that the choice he made in this instance was in their favor. In fact if you notice Morpheus needed reassuring that Zion would be able to overcome this trial before he made his choice. A man can choose to eat an apple one day but still favor pears over apples can he not?
GamiSB wrote:I disagree. This does not mean that Morpheus has sided with the Cypherites or the Machines. It means that the choice he made in this instance was in their favor. In fact if you notice Morpheus needed reassuring that Zion would be able to overcome this trial before he made his choice. A man can choose to eat an apple one day but still favor pears over apples can he not?
He may no longer have a choice. If he helps the Machines with this request, he will foresake Zion in the process. His supply of pears may run out.
There is always a choice even if one road is easier to take then the other. Morpheus is still not limited to only doing what the Machine says and can still find ways to help Zion. In fact I firmly believe that this event will help Zion more the hurt. Their military is now forced to reconfigure all there veteran operatives signals something that should have been done a long time ago for the very reasons we see now. Morpheus has taught Zion a hard but much needed lesson. Did he foresee this happening? Who's to say but he still cared enough for Zion to be sure that they could overcome this.
NiChO wrote:A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.I have to agree with you there. Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.
There is always a choice even if one road is easier to take then the other. Morpheus is still not limited to only doing what the Machine says and can still find ways to help Zion. In fact I firmly believe that this event will help Zion more than hurt. Their military is now forced to reconfigure all there veteran operatives signals something that should have been done a long time ago for the very reasons we see now. Morpheus has taught Zion a hard but much needed lesson. Did he foresee this happening? Who's to say but he still cared enough for Zion to be sure that they could overcome this.
Perhaps. Only time will tell I suppose. The choices we make are based on the choices already made by others.
Garu wrote:NiChO wrote:A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.I have to agree with you there. Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.
But what if all those who know of the idea die, wouldn't the idea die with them?
Croesus wrote:Garu wrote:NiChO wrote:A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.I have to agree with you there. Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.
But what if all those who know of the idea die, wouldn't the idea die with them?
There will always be people who choose to serve an idea. An idea may diminish but it never truly dies. Look at Zion.
Garu wrote:Zion will not fall. However, this "What-If" mess could go on forever. This is a same scenario as:"If a tree hits the ground when no one is around, will it make a noise?" We all know that an idea, a belief, an emotional attachment towards something or someone will always be if it is pass along through poetry, memories, and/or an everlasting love. As expected. Take Neo for example.Croesus wrote:Garu wrote:NiChO wrote:A man can die, but a man's dreams last forever.I have to agree with you there. Ideas never die only those who believe in them do.
But what if all those who know of the idea die, wouldn't the idea die with them?
There will always be people who choose to serve an idea. An idea may diminish but it never truly dies. Look at Zion.
Indeed but what if Zion and it's population were wiped from the face of the earth? Be it by the Machines or plague or natural disaster such as a cave-in? There would be no one to carry on such an idea. Other ideas may form and be similar, but everything dies... Nothing can stop the march of time.
ChloeAnn wrote:Morpheus is going Cyph! WOOHOO!!!Garu wrote:In the end, everyone must choose a side. It is inevitable.
I agree.
I disagree. This does not mean that Morpheus has sided with the Cypherites or the Machines. It means that the choice he made in this instance was in their favor. In fact if you notice Morpheus needed reasureing that Zion would be able to overcome this trial before he made his choice. A man can choose to eat an apple one day but still favor pears over appels can he not?
Indeed but what if Zion and it's population were wiped from the face of the earth? Be it by the Machines or plague or natural disaster such as a cave-in? There would be no one to carry on such an idea. Other ideas may form and be similar, but everything dies... Nothing can stop the march of time.
As long as there are free minds, there will always be ideas. Zion has been annihilated several times, yet it rises from the ashes to oppose the system every time.
Morpheus is going Cyph! WOOHOO!!!Wouldn't celebrate too soon there, mate.
Bring out the champagne!
*gets wasted*
Garu wrote:As long as there are free minds, there will always be ideas. Zion has been annihilated several times, yet it rises from the ashes to oppose the system every time.
Your right, it has, but that was because the Machines required it to be reformed, hence the One having to chose a few people after returning to the source to re-build Zion
Garu wrote:As long as there are free minds, there will always be ideas. Zion has been annihilated several times, yet it rises from the ashes to oppose the system every time.
Your right, it has, but that was because the Machines required it to be reformed, hence the One having to chose a few people after returning to the source to re-build Zion
Quite right. Though each time it becomes populated by citizens who all believe in the same idea as their predecessors despite having never met them. Today there will be someone born into this world who shares the same ideas as myself or someone who believes as Zion does.
Our bodies can be broken but the ideas we have live on through others until the end of time or until no one believes in it anymore.
I guess I was trying to say that the same exact ideas from a man do not necessarily get passed on, but ideas born of of necessity and situation are generally very similar.Our bodies can be broken but the ideas we have live on through others until the end of time or until no one believes in it anymore.Hehe, this is what I originally said in a round about way! This is what started the thread going of on the tangent its on now! I do hope we're not gonna be going around in circles!
Good points by all!" width="15" height="15" /> I guess I was trying to say that the same exact ideas from a man do not necessarily get passed on, but ideas born of of necessity and situation are generally very similar.
(( Wrong chapter tag, pm sent. ))Hmwah? Oh. Numbers...
cloudwolf wrote:(( Wrong chapter tag, pm sent. ))Hmwah? Oh. Numbers...
I'd say that if everyone who believes in an idea dies, the idea dies with them... for a time. If the idea was formed once, it may be formed again.
Taking Zion as an example again, Zion was destroyed, but it did the same thing six times in a row (no doubt with some small variances, sure, but nothing significantly different). The Machines orchestrated events so that the city's population would hold the same beliefs and have the same ideas with each iteration.
I think it's a little to early to celebrate... Zion has got a lot of fight left in them yet, yes the most experienced operatives are getting taken out of the equation but that leaves room for the more inexperienced, and while that may work in our favour also, it could just make them more tenacious, trying unanticipated plans etc.....Exactly what we'd need, should our lives be threatened again.
Morpheus the man was strong, both in will and intellect. He was not easily swayed nor manipulated.
Morpheus the program is indecisive, unproven, and unprepared. I have little faith in his ability to make sound decisions for the betterment of the human race.
Perhaps this program should be neutralized. . .permanently.
Morpheus the man was strong, both in will and intellect. He was not easily swayed nor manipulated.
Morpheus the program is indecisive, unproven, and unprepared. I have little faith in his ability to make sound decisions for the betterment of the human race.
Perhaps this program should be neutralized. . .permanently.
Morpheus the man was strong because his beliefs drifted into fanaticism. He was not easily swayed or manipulated by facts or reason. In the end, his fixation on the return of a corpse (not peace, or freedom for humanity) led not only to his own death, but to the deaths of many bluepills through his codebombs.
Morpheus the program doesn't seem to have these faults, at least not yet. He is trying to learn -- he knows he doesn't know everything, unlike the fanatic who believed there was nothing left to learn.
Illyria
PS: I did predict that Zion/EPN would want the sim deleted if he didn't help them, no matter what the reasoning was behind it.
Morpheus the man was strong because his beliefs drifted into fanaticism. He was not easily swayed or manipulated by facts or reason. In the end, his fixation on the return of a corpse (not peace, or freedom for humanity) led not only to his own death, but to the deaths of many bluepills through his codebombs.
Morpheus the program doesn't seem to have these faults, at least not yet. He is trying to learn -- he knows he doesn't know everything, unlike the fanatic who believed there was nothing left to learn.
Illyria
PS: I did predict that Zion/EPN would want the sim deleted if he didn't help them, no matter what the reasoning was behind it.
Morpheus was strong because he followed the truth. When confronted with the fact that the prophecy was a system of control that the Machines placed on humanity, he didn't want to believe it. He eventually did come around to face the truth about the situation. The One returning to the Source did not end the war. It perilously came close to destroying humanity. Only Neo's actions saved us all, Machine and Human alike. You look down on people who base their actions on emotion and so dismiss them. These people have their time and place that let them fit within society. Without these people, who would drive us and keep pushing us to test ourselves? Their passion is what has kept Zion going, fighting against all odds. To keep fighting even when faced with certain death.
If Neo's body was considered as just a corpse by the Machines, why had they not even recycled it like they do with the other corpses of the dead? Following the logic that is implied by your viewpoint, even the Machines were "fixated" on this, by their own standards. You look at everything through a very jaded lens, and tend to think very one-sidedly. You refuse to look at situations from the other side of the fence, and that thinking is what perpetuates this constant violence between blood and data. Of course, I am not naive enough to think that there aren't people on this side who do the exact same thing, but certainly you have been one of the most vocal about it.
This simulation is not Morpheus, and can never be Morpheus. It has proven that before, but now it is beyond a doubt since it has given up these RSI codes of our veterans. He may yet grow into a fine creature, but the fact is that his place is not meant with Zion or with the Machines. As someone else said before he is of a Machine with the mind of a Man, not fitting in with either. I would be content with him living on his own aiding neither side, but unfortunately he has made his choice of aiding those who wish to kill us. If he so chooses another life for himself, I would leave him alone. Until then, he is a sworn enemy. We shall see what his future holds.
-Cykosis