Humans as Power? Impossible!

Civilizations don't do.  They exist.

Want proof?

What does Western Human Civilization do?

Procurator wrote:

That's not a bad idea, and I've heard something like that elsewhere. If that's the case, I'd love to know what they're computing. But then, I also want to know what the Machine Civilisation actually does.

Civilizations don't do.  They exist.

Want proof?

What does Western Human Civilization do?

Chemuel wrote:

Procurator wrote:

That's not a bad idea, and I've heard something like that elsewhere. If that's the case, I'd love to know what they're computing. But then, I also want to know what the Machine Civilisation actually does.

Civilizations don't do.  They exist.

Want proof?

What does Western Human Civilization do?

They enjoy the products of their various industries. When you're not working, you're out having a drink with friends, watching movies or TV, listening to music, playing computer games, reading books... Still others further science, expand our knowledge of the Universe.

What does the Machine Civilisation do instead of these things? Do they all have a job which they perform 100% of the time and to maximum efficiency? Do they appreciate art? Are they creative? We know Exiles do and are.

"On the existential view, to understand what a human being is it is not enough to know all the truths that natural science — including the science of psychology — could tell us. The non-reductive dualist is no better off in this regard than is the physicalist. Nor will it suffice to adopt the point of view of practice and add categories drawn from moral theory: neither scientific nor moral inquiry can fully capture what it is that makes me myself, my "ownmost" self. Without denying the validity of scientific categories (governed by the norm of truth) or moral categories (governed by norms of the good and the right), "existentialism" may be defined as the philosophical theory which holds that a further set of categories, governed by the norm of authenticity, is necessary to grasp human existence." - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

((OK so i'm SO stoked to see this thread getting into some good discussion. I don't agree with it all but I'm gald to see some real discourse. Just two things this time.

Tytanya- while I share your concerns, I think I'll quote Morpheus and say we should shed our fear of it. I certainly don't want to see the whole Matrix world unraveled. Quite the contrary, I really think that pulling this particular string could ENHANCE the Matrix world. NightTraces response is great evidence of that. As you expressed so well, the initial premise made for a great set of movies. But from the moment they carried the storyline to MxO, there has been a need for expansion. How long will this game run. Can we really expect the same basic premise to keep everyones interest hour after day after year? I think that yanking the "humans as Power" premise wil actually enhance the storyline.Please note that I've Never said "the Matrix is Impossible". All I've said is that its Purpose cannot be energy creation. That leaves room for lots of other purposes, and their exploration can fill a storyline for quite some time.

NightTrace- That's just freakin brilliant! I was just pondering that they might be keeping humans to research our brain mechanics, but actaully harnessing it? That's what I'm looking for here, is some Real reasons for there being a Matrix. That's probably the most compelling alternative explanation I've heard.))

stewartdaniels1986 wrote:

psilody wrote:

To start with, there are laws regarding the behavior of energy in our universe, such as the Laws of Thermodynamics. These laws state, among other things, that energy in our universe can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only be transferred from one form to another.

psilody wrote:

We need food to produce chemical reactions to create energy.

Clear enough?

Oh please, now you're just nitpicking his choice of words. Psilody clearly meant we need food to obtain/extract/convert energy. To get energy in a state that's usable within the human body.

stewartdaniels1986 wrote:

Human beings aren't the only energy producing entities on this planet, and the very laws to which you've referred prove that all of the energy available in the universe is in fact still available.  The bodies in the pods supply bioelectricity, nothing more.  Energy can come from a myriad of sources irrespective of human beings.  Smash two atoms together for a better understanding.

I may be wrong, but I believe that this is exactly the point Psilody is trying to get across.

"On the existential view, to understand what a human being is it is not enough to know all the truths that natural science — including the science of psychology — could tell us. The non-reductive dualist is no better off in this regard than is the physicalist. Nor will it suffice to adopt the point of view of practice and add categories drawn from moral theory: neither scientific nor moral inquiry can fully capture what it is that makes me myself, my "ownmost" self. Without denying the validity of scientific categories (governed by the norm of truth) or moral categories (governed by norms of the good and the right), "existentialism" may be defined as the philosophical theory which holds that a further set of categories, governed by the norm of authenticity, is necessary to grasp human existence." - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

The Machines are efficient so it is likely they won't waste any part of a human's biological systems if they can use it somehow. For example in terms of linking:

The circulatory systems of every human in a tower could be linked as a way of transporting and distributing certain chemicals (maybe hormones or enzymes to enhance other systems). This means they only need to input the chemicals once and it spreads to everyone connected in the biological network. Like a virus in a computer network only it is beneficial.

The nervous systems of every human in a tower could be linked as a way of creating a super computer (like NightTrace said). It is estimated the processing power of an average brain to be about 100 million MIPS (Million computer Instructions Per Second), beyond modern super computers which have a few million MIPS (unless the Machines have developed a computer that surpasses the human brain).

The circulatory system one is probably not true because it is unlikely the machines found a way to manipulate humans like that, as we are fragile. Also we didn't see any blood on neo's implants when he was awakened, which could have implied his blood was being pumped outside his body until the connection was severed.

One of the most persuasive arguments for the behaviour of the Machines at the end of Revolutions is that they need Humans to validate their own existence and this remains in sympathy with the ideas proposed here - the mechanical propagation of their own kind is a sterile and largely pointless goal if examined with pure logic - in effect the lack of real purpose could well drive them to seek emotional experience by proxy or else use this considerable resource to actually propagate a larger purpose. The meaning of life is a question written into the dna of all sentient life and its only natural the Machines own perspective would fuel a quest of their own.

Unfortunately like Procurator my own background is science and more pragmatic in that I accept the religious overtones of the story but always regard such things as just the bridge between acceptance and true understanding.... "before explanation all things appear magnificent" as Sherlock Holmes might say.

In terms of the concerns I raise they continue regardless of the depth and quality of these discussion, incresingly revelations diminish the involvement of the player at an RP level, as the universe increases in size you become increasingly insignificant - while its an important story issue why the humans are kept in pods unless it impacts perceptibly on the relationship between the orgs within the Matrix the revelation is irrelevent or unaffected to the vast majority, like the destruction of Zion, an incredibly powerful event were we watching a movie - but to us confined by the limits of our game world it just lacks bite and for many they have no clue anything has changed. Developing the story in areas we cannot go and cannot feel consequence emphasises the limitations we face, the ability of the world to convince is damaged and it becomes just a game. Equally these revelations require a level of understanding of the matrix that casual players cannot become involved in and by and large will sideline them to the mechanics of the game and exclude them from rp leaving the story aware members of the community a dying breed. 

Most significantly the mechanisms used to make these revelation is to call into question the information we were provided with at source, but the doubts are now inherent in further revelations - even if we discover the matrix is a giant supercomputer our character can't rely on the information and at the drop of a hat it could all be dismissed by a word 'lies' and the idea of powercells reinstated - at an rp level our character is a helpless leaf in the wind at best and a totally detached and uninvolved observer at worse - a book/film links you to a character by and large to direct your thinking and manipulate your emotions and entertainment, but an mmo hasnt got that luxury and therefore its story has to use different mechanisms to lead you forward and inspire you to want to become involved, this is where I feel the story is undermining itself at present and needs to scale itself back to the player level to draw people in and get them on side.

As a scientist - and a futurist, I guess - I take issue with this quote. But it's mildly poetic, so I'll let it stand. " />

Unless you want to argue the existence of a soul, anything that happens in nature can be emulated. It's just incredibly complex. 'Human nature' and the 'self' are ultimately just the result of interactions within the brain, all following the laws of physics. That can be simulated. Humans don't do anything that disobeys the laws of physics, so those same laws can be applied to simulate it.

When it comes to the Machines, they might use humans in a supercomputer configuration to calculate things like emotions and the like, certainly, but it won't be because it's otherwise impossible: it's probably because it's the most efficient means to achieve it. Brains are already wired up to make those things, whereas the Machines would have to put in a lot of research and then develop more computers and programs to achieve it themselves. It's possible, but a waste of time. 

PS1ON- I like that idea too, though it needs elaboration to create real purpose. It appears nearly certain that the creation of the Matrix triggered many Machines to explore this aspect of reality. The entire Exile phenomena seems to revolve around Machines exploring beyond their programmed roles. One might argue that the Matrix exists as a foil, an unmoving background against which people and Machines alike can explore these issues. It provides a focus of resistance.

Tytanya- I guess what I already see is a loss of player interest at the RP level. As a friend of mine said last night, "plotline-schmotline".

To me the whole phenomenon that is the Matrix movies, MxO, etc. rests on interest in asking questions. While the setup for the Movies was important, it was clearly all a backdrop on which to ask questions like "WHat is Reality?""What is right and wrong?""What is human emotion?" As such, virtually everyone in this game should be "in character" someone who asked questions. Its how we got here. At an RP level, it seems absurd that such people would then pick a side and stop asking questions.

For that matter, look at this forum board. Most of the posts for feedback on particular Story missions have 10-15 responses. But a post about the very nature of the Matrix is now going 50+ This IS waht interests people about the Matrix! While the Dev's need to be carful about how they guide this storyline, it actually holds promise of reigniting some interest in the storyline. It did for me. I've dropped in and out of this game since launch, and reading through the recent storyline summaries is part of why I resubscribed this month. There were finally some things going on that interested me!

I think the problem of disinterest lies with the whole nature of the relationships, and how entrenched they are. characters are asked to pick sides to RP in a world where no side can EVER lose. How do maitian interest in being  a cypherite (for instance), when if you ever succeeded you would have to stop playing your character?

Yet the game persists, so I think that worrying this will somehow ruin the experience is a little premature

I'm sure Stanford University will be abashed to hear that you take exception to their publication.  " />  It's agreed that emotions could be simulated, emulated, synthesized, but they wouldn't be real emotions.  Obviously there is a big difference or else Persephone would just program up a sim who was always in love and kiss it instead of looking for the real thing.  There is a transcendent quality to human experience which the Machines don't seem to be capable of achieving.   There is nothing to suggest that they can have religious, spiritual or mystical experiences as human beings can.  There is no substitute for genuine experience.  I can run a simulation which emulates the experience of flying thru the Grand Canyon, but it would be no where near the same as experiencing it for real.  The simulation could never account for all the nuances of plant and animal life and weather.  While these elements might be represented in the simulation, they would not have the same dynamic and interaction which appears in the real world.  While I hesitate to bring up things which most people would consider "paranormal" or "supernatural," it does bear mentioning that there is a wide range of human experiences which have been proven to be actual phenomenon (such as remote viewing) which have no rational explanation using physics, biology and chemistry.  It's these emergent and transcendent experiences which set us apart from an artificial mind which can only experience that which it is designed and programmed to experience and argue for the existence of a soul all on their own.  As we explore the multi-dimensional nature of our universe with tools such as M Theory and phenomenon such as Quantum Entanglement and Virtual Particles, we come to learn that there is much, much more possible than Newtonian or Einsteinian physics allow for.  The reason these pursuits are slow in the going is because they demand that we accept such notions as "there is no reality without perception" and "thoughts are things and things are nothing more than thoughts" and "consciousness is not a localized phenomenon" and "time, space and thought are not the separate things they appear to be."  Eventually we will evolve and be able to dismiss the notion of the ego-self and experience the universe as pure consciousness without the constraints of a physical body to limit us, realizing that it was only the concept of self which kept us trapped in the first place.  It's our own acceptance of the limits of our understanding which holds us back.  No matter what empirical data is presented and proof shown, at the level of Quantum Influence, the very act of believing something to be impossible makes it impossible and conversely, believing something to be possible enables it.

This topic previously generated a flurry of debate but seems to have lain dormant for a month now. I believe that commentators have "tied themselves in knots" as concerns scientific validity of the initial supposition from which Psilody bases the thread, and have failed to tackle the true subject itself. This may be due to the title of the post. From my interpretation, the real question being asked is: if there is no obvious energy production benefit, "What is the true benefit which The Machines receive from The Matrix?"

NightTrace was the first to give an answer to this question, back on page 4. I too like his theory, but it is far from the only possible explanation. We have also considered whether we offer The Machines "intuitive" characteristics, or even whether they preserve us as a gesture, to be closer to their creator. I think I will likely echo elements of each of these theories in the rest of this post.

The Merovingian has been taking readings of the "power" which The Machines receive from The Matrix, and has even evaluated this by district: Downtown being indicated as offering the highest yield. So what does Downtown hold which might explain these readings? Errr...big business. Not industrial manufacturing, but the commercial sector and developmental/research enterprises.

There have been a number of recent events which have had direct connections to these businesses. Hell, there has even been an organised Redpill tour of one of the companies. Coincidence? Me thinks not.

Ouroboros is very proud of its Think Tank which "powers the world forward in to the next century". We know that very few humans have not been touched by the developments made by Ouroboros. It also holds incredible supplies of electrical power within its walls. Could this not indicate the importance of the company?

From here, all I can do is submit conjecture: Could it be that the inspiration of human minds is being used to fuel technological progression outside of The Matrix? Ouroboros is regularly described as "cyclic": feeding upon itself. Does this hint that these advancements are actually assiting in the maintenance of The Matrix itself?

If this thinking is coupled with the theory described by NightTrace, we can free ourselves from attempting to understand The Matrix through our scientific understanding. Instead of considering the value of The Matrix in terms of solely an energy source, it becomes "sustenance". Humans are providing a type of development which requires a "leap of faith"; alien to the logical progression of The Machines. Yes, The Oracle can draw upon a copied/acquired human qualities: but she is not producing it herself. She is using the free-thinking of humans and extrapolates from the insight she acquires. Similarly, Machines in The Real can use the inspiration of Humankind and bend it to their own devices. Therefore, the term "power" might have a far looser meaning when describing what The Machines receive from the simulation.

Thanks Captain!

Your ideas about "power" really hit a key point. Within the complexities and limitations of a computer system, there may lie other reasons for the Matrix to exist. Pretty difficult to explore, but some good, reasoned speculation may give us new lines of inquiry to pursue.

And I agree that my original title may have been a mistake in the long run. I was intentionally aiming to stir things up, but perhaps I strirred up the wrong things. Discussion does seem to have fizzled out right at the point I was hoping it would pick up.

In any case, I think we have some good suggestions to work from, and I appreciate the ideas brought forth. Maybe everyone is meditating on the subject, and hasn't come back with their insights?