[8.3.3] "Problem is he's got some mental issues" - Vector - 10/18/07

No one, as of yet, has asked the right questions, they just seem to talk at it rather than with it.

It's hard to talk with someone if you don't know anything about them. The best people have done is try to treat it like Morpheus or like a program sympathetic with the System. Neither has worked in the least. In short people have no idea what he believes or what might even make some headway. Reminds me of a typical conversation with a stranger that usually ends up centered on the weather. We have no way to connect with this guy.

EPN tried asking the Oracle for some idea how this thing ticks. She gave us a false lead then a "you should just do what you think is right" line. No one else has gotten any further, and at this point until this thing just happens to decide to open up about itself I don't think anyone will. 

Yet again we found defeat. The Machines allowing this simulation to escape in this first place. The simulation thrives in a place where it shouldn't be. It is too unpredictable. A danger to blue pills.

It belongs in the Source.

(( I'm not a huge fan of the Org locked buildings. I wish there were fewer events where we were locked out. Maybe only lock out one org if it's supposed to be a struggle between two? I know people would have beef with that, namely the locked-out Org, but so long as things like this are distributed evenly... ))

((I disagree w4r, those locks are their for a reason. If they were opened to other orgs we would get more useless spam and greifers ruining the events for those players interested. Do you not remember events before the org lock? how many players who only cared about pvp came just to toss dev fields in the crowds around the events? With the org lock all they can do is useless spam outside of the building. Which will get them on ignore lists.

And not all situations need to have constant warfare going all the time. what do you think would happen if they had opened the org lock to machines and zions right then, We wouldn't have been talking with moprheus at all we'd have been fighting each other over him. With everyone fighting no one is talking and thus the story suffers for it. I'm sure if the positions were reversed you would not want us zions interfering with you talking with Sim morpheus just as much.

As for the machine security building, they kept the building org locked because if both reds and the npcs were together Zion might not have had a chance to do anything. I would have been in favor of you red machinists in that building over Npcs, but that is not always garaunteed to have enough players to make the fight enjoyable for everyone. Again if the situation was reversed, Zion npcs with Zion operatives together in one area possible outcomes would be similar 

the org lock system isn't a perfect tool but until they come up with something better, It's the best we got.))    

Perhaps asking the Morpheus Simulacrum what it wants, rather than telling it what it should want, would prove worthwhile.

You may be right xElite, We all keep treating this simulacrum as Morpheus, even though we know that it is not him. We really should be trying to look past the surface and get to know the "being" that it currently is, The swiss cheese fragments of Morpheus combined with whatever programming the General threw in the mix.

Let us stop speaking to the Morpheus inside him and start speaking to the whole being.

The cypherites will be trying to use Cryptos to convince the simulcrum to aid the machines. With Cryptos' unique perspective(the combined parts of program and man) I unfotunately believe that he may have the best chance at relating to the simulcrum. Their meeting should prove interesting and possibly disastrous for some.  

The Morpheus simulacrum has spoken of a desire for peace... for a stop to the incessant choosing of sides and warring factions.  And the decision is made to approach him with an armed force and to get his attention by more pointless fighting.  It's a wonder he even bothered to show up at all.

Good event overall.

Helps that i killed one of the level 100 Agents

Good job guys

Shinryu wrote:

The Morpheus simulacrum has spoken of a desire for peace... for a stop to the incessant choosing of sides and warring factions.  And the decision is made to approach him with an armed force and to get his attention by more pointless fighting.  It's a wonder he even bothered to show up at all.

For the record, our "armed force" was sent elsewhere while those who offered the data stayed behind to wait for the Morpheus simulacrum to appear. It wasn't until we were ambushed by Agents and SWAT at the meeting location that our attack team came back to keep us safe.

Soluma wrote:

Shinryu wrote:

The Morpheus simulacrum has spoken of a desire for peace... for a stop to the incessant choosing of sides and warring factions.  And the decision is made to approach him with an armed force and to get his attention by more pointless fighting.  It's a wonder he even bothered to show up at all.

For the record, our "armed force" was sent elsewhere while those who offered the data stayed behind to wait for the Morpheus simulacrum to appear. It wasn't until we were ambushed by Agents and SWAT at the meeting location that our attack team came back to keep us safe.

Yes yes, of course.  You attacked the Machine team which were as far as we know simply monitoring the activities of the simulacrum with an armed force and, for some inexplicable reason, you where then set upon by reinforcements.  No way you could have seen that coming.  If this data you had was really desirable enough, I doubt you would have needed to "get the attention of the Morpheus simulacrum" by doing anything other than offering it.

Heh, too right. Another example of planning with little regard to possible outcomes. In fact if you hadn't decided to attack the Machines that were attempting to track the Sim, a Sim that has had some good success' in evading observation and detainment,  then attention probably wouldn't have been drawn to you and you would have most likely had a much easier time of it.

It's called situational awareness, whoever planned this operation needs to get some!

I feel sorry for that poor simulacrum, I really do. Imagine, having the thoughts and memories of someone else, even before you came into being. Yet now, look at how it's starting to grow. Oh it's hard to say it's growing and not get a laugh from some, yet look at the basics. It's not accepting "the truth" anymore.

Now, by that I don't mean about the Matrix, I mean just in how it goes about things. "The truth" in his mind is so flexible right now. All his life he's been told what is true, by memories that aren't his, by his creator and now by all of us. Who are we to tell the program the true value of right and wrong. Look where that has got us, a war that will probably never end.

The simulacrum isn't the one with the mental issues it's all of us. Each of us, spinning the truth to suit our needs and not his. Now we might truely see who is right and wrong, yet maybe we won't.

He is still learning, yet he will do what he sees as right in the end, not what we tell him is right.

So does this mean you are gonna let it decide for itself who it trusts more, and does that go for the entire Org? I can't see you taking the sidelines while every other Org tries to convince it, because one Org may find out exactly what it is wanting and may be able to offer it. You can't afford to allow it not to be you.

Ah you see, that is where things differ. I was there last week when we really did go out to try and find him to speak to him ourselves. Does it mean we're doing things the right way, well that's another matter entirely. Yet there are keys to his actions if you read enough of them.

Every org here can offer it everything you can think of, yet can you give him individuality and peace of mind with what he is?

You're right though, we can't offord for it to not be our group that it sides with, yet what if it decides to not side with anyone, why hasn't that been asked of it yet. Why not help him, rather than asking him to help us?

Niobe and her operatives were onto something the other day. Stop telling it what's going to happen if it joins one group over the other, ask it more about how it feels about things. Like I said, it's growing and learning, why else would it seek out the Oracle for guidance? For the lovely cookie service or more like what she's known for, helping those who are lost to find the path.

Honestly, I think the machines stand to lose as much as any of us, despite the appearance of viewing this particular situation from an advantage. As a matter of fact, there seems to be something internally, inherently keeping it from siding with the machines completely.

That I don't doubt, but do you really think that other Orgs will oblige an EPN and stop their attempts to convince it to side with them. I'm all for letting it decide for itself, but as you say, we Machinists could lose quite a lot, like everyone else. So what would the intelligent decision be, stop trying and watch other orgs in their attempts that may possibly succeed, or try anyway, knowing that all the other Orgs are doing exactly the same thing, in the hopes that your attempts may spark something in the mind of the sim before someone else does?

Fact of the matter is, if we did take your 'advice' and leave it alone, it would give you a far greater oppertunity to convince it. So the only way this is going to be resolved is if it comes to its own conclusion regardless or one org finds a way to get through to it before the others do.

Niobe and her operatives were onto something the other day. Stop telling it what's going to happen if it joins one group over the other, ask it more about how it feels about things. Like I said, it's growing and learning, why else would it seek out the Oracle for guidance? For the lovely cookie service or more like what she's known for, helping those who are lost to find the path.

Mnemasyne wrote:

Honestly, I think the machines stand to lose as much as any of us, despite the appearance of viewing this particular situation from an advantage. As a matter of fact, there seems to be something internally, inherently keeping it from siding with the machines completely.

That I don't doubt, but do you really think that other Orgs will oblige an EPN and stop their attempts to convince it to side with them. I'm all for letting it decide for itself, but as you say, we Machinists could lose quite a lot, like everyone else. So what would the intelligent decision be, stop trying and watch other orgs in their attempts that may possibly succeed, or try anyway, knowing that all the other Orgs are doing exactly the same thing, in the hopes that your attempts may spark something in the mind of the sim before someone else does?

Fact of the matter is, if we did take your 'advice' and leave it alone, it would give you a far greater oppertunity to convince it. So the only way this is going to be resolved is if it comes to its own conclusion regardless or one org finds a way to get through to it before the others do.

Just remember what I said about it's internal, inherent programming.

If that's the case, you should reference what I said about manipulating it without it's consent...

I predict that if the sim does decide to help the Machines, Zion/EPN will attempt to delete him.

Illyria

I predict that if the sim does decide to help the Machines, Zion/EPN will attempt to delete him.

One can easily predict the same from the Machinist side, however these predictions may be unfounded. Fear is a big motivator for all parties, but who knows, maybe for the sake of 'choice' EPN or even the Machines would leave it be if it went against their interests. Or perhaps not. 

Unfortunately that's not likely.  The simulacrum's existence has remained unhindered because it has chosen to remain neutral to the desires of each side.  However, once a side is chosen then it's demise is unavoidable.  Such is the way for us all.

I predict that if the sim does decide to help the Machines, Zion/EPN will attempt to delete him.

Illyria

Illyria22 wrote:

I predict that if the sim does decide to help the Machines, Zion/EPN will attempt to delete him.

Illyria

Oh my dear, you're forgetting my adopted mantra, "Bless all forms of intelligence" yes, and I mean even the silly lot that do keep trying to kill me! *chuckles*

Ideas can be resolved peacefully, can't they?

You may not believe me but debating with a lot of Zionists over the past two years there are a lot of us that most likely would have been content with just New Zion and the 1% that the Machines give a conscious choice to. Many people are (or at least were) under the impression that bluepills are quite happy where they are and should just be left alone for the most part. Members of Children of Zion and other old groups tracing their origins back to Beta drove me to extreme lengths of frustration discussing the topic.

Then there are people like EPN and myself within it who would prefer for everyone ideally to make a fully conscious choice, and for the world to have more of an equal balance of power to protect against incidents like mass possession (Cryptoseque redpills, Agents, etc.), monitoring, all of that. Forms of control.

The one uniting factor between the two sides is the Machines these days are out to kill both of us. They don't trust us, they think we'll go postal on them. After having to put up with all this **bullcrud** for 600 someodd years maybe they're right. I hope not. But at this point as ideally preferable as it is peace seems to be the furthest thing from most parties minds' right now. Survival's more toward the forefront.

Oh my dear, you're forgetting my adopted mantra, "Bless all forms of intelligence" yes, and I mean even the silly lot that do keep trying to kill me! *chuckles*

You're very enlightened, for a member of EPN -- it's a shame that not everyone in your organization recognizes the Machines' right to exist.  A counterpart of yours on the Recursion instance told me there would be no peace while they still did, and I've heard Zionites say the same thing. 

But anyway, if the Morpheus sim decides to help Zion (by not helping the Machines), the situation we're in doesn't change.  But if he chooses to go the other route, giving the Machines the ability to lock the signals of people like Niobe and Ghost, it may push the Zion org back to the negotiating table. 

Illyria

...giving the Machines the ability to lock the signals of people like Niobe and Ghost, it may push the Zion org back to the negotiating table. 

As much as I hate to reply twice in rapid succession I'm afraid I must stoop.

1. How important do you think Niobe and Ghost are to Zion? Remember back over the past two years. What have they actually done other than been rallying figures? They're veterans, true. They're more powerful than the rest of us. But otherwise they're really no different, and as we've seen their job can largely be done by liasons. As I've said before, EPN also would be unaffected.

2. Back to the negotiating table? Did you watch video 8.3 at all (or 8.1 for that matter)? No negotiation. No request for surrender. No prisoners. As soon as Zion could defend itself the Machines literally wiped Old Zion City from the map. As soon as Zion could defend itself not a single person was allowed to find out the truth anymore. There is no negotiation table. The Machines obliterated it. 

There was no negotiation table when Neo approached the Machines, indeed they even tried to prevent him reaching it. As we know he did. The Machines could have, albeit at the loss of all Humankind connected to the Simulation, locked down the Simulation and terminated it. Obviously it was a last resort after all other avenues of stopping Smith had failed and no doubts that The Machines were getting close to that decision when Neo presented another option.

What I'm trying to say is that regardless of circumstances, there is always a way for negotiation. The problem we have is lack of commuication, the Machines have offered it asking only for you to lay down your arms for negotiations, but it seems that Zion is not interested in negotiation and the longer it is the case the less likely that the Machines will be interested in it. Less likely, but not impossible.

Zion was a show of strength, a reminder of what the Machines are capable of, just in case anyone in Zion was starting to get complacent about the Machine's resolve...

As soon as Zion could defend itself the Machines literally wiped Old Zion City from the map.

Isn't it interesting, though, that the Machines didn't attack immediately after they found out about New Zion?  They seemed to wait until most of Zion's population had been evacuated...

Illyria

Zerotolerance wrote:

Ideas can be resolved peacefully, can't they?

You may not believe me but debating with a lot of Zionists over the past two years there are a lot of us that most likely would have been content with just New Zion and the 1% that the Machines give a conscious choice to. Many people are (or at least were) under the impression that bluepills are quite happy where they are and should just be left alone for the most part. Members of Children of Zion and other old groups tracing their origins back to Beta drove me to extreme lengths of frustration discussing the topic.

Then there are people like EPN and myself within it who would prefer for everyone ideally to make a fully conscious choice, and for the world to have more of an equal balance of power to protect against incidents like mass possession (Cryptoseque redpills, Agents, etc.), monitoring, all of that. Forms of control.

The one uniting factor between the two sides is the Machines these days are out to kill both of us. They don't trust us, they think we'll go postal on them. After having to put up with all this poppycock for 600 someodd years maybe they're right. I hope not. But at this point as ideally preferable as it is peace seems to be the furthest thing from most parties minds' right now. Survival's more toward the forefront.

That *CENSORED* program is gonna get us all killed....

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Brought to you by.... 

Let's hope this program knows less than we think it does.....

Let's hope this program knows less than we think it does.....

Too late. 

Illyria

Khepril wrote:

Oh my dear, you're forgetting my adopted mantra, "Bless all forms of intelligence" yes, and I mean even the silly lot that do keep trying to kill me! *chuckles*

You're very enlightened, for a member of EPN -- it's a shame that not everyone in your organization recognizes the Machines' right to exist.  A counterpart of yours on the Recursion instance told me there would be no peace while they still did, and I've heard Zionites say the same thing. 

But anyway, if the Morpheus sim decides to help Zion (by not helping the Machines), the situation we're in doesn't change.  But if he chooses to go the other route, giving the Machines the ability to lock the signals of people like Niobe and Ghost, it may push the Zion org back to the negotiating table. 

Illyria

I don't think that the Machine's right to exist is much of an argument when they target and delete their own, eliminating their right to exist just because they fail to retain a purpose or get replaced by other programs. The Machine is a hypocrite to it's own "right to live" for the sake of efficiency and purpose. The same thing that started this war in the first place.

Pyraci wrote:

I don't think that the Machine's right to exist is much of an argument when they target and delete their own, eliminating their right to exist just because they fail to retain a purpose or get replaced by other programs. The Machine is a hypocrite to it's own "right to live" for the sake of efficiency and purpose. The same thing that started this war in the first place.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Humankind has been doing this since records began, yet we have always had our rights to exist. Problem is, too many people see the differences between us and the Machines and not the similarities. Look past exterior physicality, beyond flesh and bone, beyond metal and silicates. See the mind, the intelligence... see life...

I don't think that the Machine's right to exist is much of an argument when they target and delete their own, eliminating their right to exist just because they fail to retain a purpose or get replaced by other programs. The Machine is a hypocrite to it's own "right to live" for the sake of efficiency and purpose. The same thing that started this war in the first place.

This is one of the things I was thinking of, when I mentioned in that other thread that you can support an org without agreeing with 100% with its policies.  My personal belief is that the Machines are too harsh with those of their own kind that are deemed unnecessary or obsolete...they're doing to themselves what B1663R's owners tried to do to him.

Illyria

I'm not dense. I see what's going on, and I see the similarities. What I am saying is that the similarities are what's keeping us in this debacle. This war started because the Machine felt it had the right to exist when it was deemed unnecessary or a threat. Now the Machine deletes programs because they deem them unnecessary or threatening the same way it's creators did, not to mention freed, non-conformist redpills because we're an "unnecessary threat". That's the point I'm trying to make. If the Machine is such a benevolent being, maybe that should be looked at as well, instead of just focusing on the flaws of the people who choose not to be controlled.

I had no intention of insulting you, I was generalising the point for everyone. Whilst there are many programs who give up their run time for newer programs, those that dont, can choose exile in a separate system Whilst we as Humans can relate to these programs struggles to live on, we tend to forget about the programs who do give up their run time willingly.

One of the main differences between us and the Machines is the way we live and how society functions. In a society where run time is valuable and limited, it could be considered by them as a criminal act to not give it up once a better program has been developed, hence programs going into exile, and being hunted down. Whilst, as a Human, I find the termination of intelligent life abhorrent, I don't believe it is our place to judge them or their values. A similar situation was back in the times before AI when certain countries used the death penalty for some of their criminals, whilst certain other countries favoured life imprisonment for the same crimes.

The argument for the Redpills can be made by saying that even though they are free, they still use or exist in the simulation and as such are subject to the rules of their society. Before the war, there were relatively few Redpills who were deemed enough of a threat to require permanent deletion.

This is one of the things I was thinking of, when I mentioned in that other thread that you can support an org without agreeing with 100% with its policies.  My personal belief is that the Machines are too harsh with those of their own kind that are deemed unnecessary or obsolete...they're doing to themselves what B1663R's owners tried to do to him.

Illyria

I had no intention of insulting you, I was generalising the point for everyone. Whilst there are many programs who give up their run time for newer programs, those that dont, can choose exile in a separate system Whilst we as Humans can relate to these programs struggles to live on, we tend to forget about the programs who do give up their run time willingly.

One of the main differences between us and the Machines is the way we live and how society functions. In a society where run time is valuable and limited, it could be considered by them as a criminal act to not give it up once a better program has been developed, hence programs going into exile, and being hunted down. Whilst, as a Human, I find the termination of intelligent life abhorrent, I don't believe it is our place to judge them or their values. A similar situation was back in the times before AI when certain countries used the death penalty for some of their criminals, whilst certain other countries favoured life imprisonment for the same crimes.

The argument for the Redpills can be made by saying that even though they are free, they still use or exist in the simulation and as such are subject to the rules of their society. Before the war, there were relatively few Redpills who were deemed enough of a threat to require permanent deletion.