Should players be forum mods?

Denary · 09/14/2007 09:17:22

Just moving the discussion out of the mods thread so I'll continue from there

History is History, it's gone done, finished.
Strange you would say that since you first brought up post history. Please at least try to be consistent here so we can stay on track.
you've recently went against the forum rules, I wouldn't say that a few hours is history.
It's what I was, past tense, who I was, who I am and what I will be are 3 completely different things. Also my English is sophisticated enough to know what arbitrary means, plus thats a personal attack on someone, someone being me. The mods do not make random decisions on punishments Twaggy gave you a list, I think what Twaggy meant by irrelevant was off topic, which is not arbitrary any dimwit can identify an on topic post from an off topic post at which the post is usually deleted, if a post has gone way too far, and 3 posts can make a thread go off topic, even with one person saying Mudkipz.
Telling someone to look up arbirtary is not an attack. And the rest of that is just plain silly and I dount you even believe it. One arbitraily (unreported) post should not kill a thread.
it's an attack because you're insinuating that I don't know what arbitrary is, if I didn't know what it was I would have looked it up myself, I wouldn't need you to tell me to do so, therefore its an attack. I certainly believe it, I am an admin on the forum at my work and I've been a gaming forum/community forum. I've also moderated a few other forums, the rules on this forum are simple and clear and it's very simple, and not as enforced as others I've seen. One post doesn't kill a thread, hopefully if it's reported, the mod will delete it before it gets seen, otherwise it can start off a chain reaction, whereby others start posting off topic, after a while it can head onto pages of irrelevant off topic discussion. Also if the thread is going against SOE's TOS I think the mods are instructed to move it to a seperate hidden forum for the admins to look at if there is any action that needs to be taken because you signed or your guardian signed an agreement which you will follow the TOS.
Extremely insulting is against the forum rules and against SOE's TOS, doing so can result easily in a suspension or ban. Exploit threads are to be discussed through the official CCR channel, even when arguing against a decision.
You completely missed the point, again. It's getting to be a difficult to have to break everything down to you.
The point? the point is you said that "unless the mod knows the player right?" Well there are many mods, and the admins are on from time to time, you're saying that certain people are friends with ALL the mods? it would get removed regardless.
Nobody knows the forum mods, there isn't a player ingame called Juryman, or Arcane. It is very rare for them ever to have a "laugh" with the community and so you don't know them very well. If they did reveal themselves to someone, they are potentially risking a permanent ban from all SOE games. Something I wouldn't be prepared to put myself into.
And that's the problem, we should know who they are. But more importantly, they shouldn't even be mods. As usual the rest of your post completely misses the point.
again you like the term, "completely misses the point" you said that because they are players only their friends will know the jokes? and that the mods treat people who don't know their jokes differently and they should treat everybody the same. Ok well thats me trying to understand what you put in your last post, I think I'm missing the point because you aren't explaining very well is all. Anyway I'll take that as to be that players aren't being treated all the same. Thats simple, because each situation is different. Because everybody is different, there are different circumstances which make different outcomes.

Bayamos · 09/14/2007 09:28:22

Should players be forum mods?

Well, in the case of MXO they'd never hire mod staff, so are options are no mods or player mods. As long as there is a functioning overseer who keeps them in check, player mods seem to be the better option.

In some cases, having the players know who the mods are can provide this sort of oversight. It's kind of an open secret who all the mods are; most people know, and that's good because the mods themselves know then that they are not truly anonymous, but instead through a 'watchdog' effect are expected to more closely follow whatever rules and policies they may have. /shrug

Mobu · 09/14/2007 09:29:10

It just seems that there are too many moderators for a small community- Almost as if they have to 'qouta-fill' a certain amount of activity in a day.

SOE doesn't pay player moderators, which is a bonus for the company, I guess.

Murloc · 09/14/2007 10:14:00

Mobu wrote:

It just seems that there are too many moderators for a small community- Almost as if they have to 'qouta-fill' a certain amount of activity in a day.

SOE doesn't pay player moderators, which is a bonus for the company, I guess.

Yeah it does have the quota feel. As for the OP, retype that in English and stop rambling if you want to have a conversation. If you think someone telling you to research about someting you obviuosly don't understand is an attack, I'd ask you to see a doctor and get helo for your anxiety issues.

LordInqubus · 09/14/2007 12:41:24

I understand the need to be cheap *CENSORED* and use players as free labor moderators. The problem may not even be the mods, but perhaps it's the method in which these free workers are chosen for the position of forum moderator.

I mean seriously, what type of qualifications are they actually looking for? Is it your forum ~~spam~~ post count? Is it how many e-friends you have in the game? Or is it possibly how many favors these players have done for the official staff in the past?

If none of the above are a factor, then I am officially applying for a Moderator position! I know what this community is. I know how to recognize ill behavior on the forum boards. I'll use a forum handle that will be identifiable as my main character (i.e. Mod_Inqubus) I don't have any friends on here, so favoritism isn't even a concern.

heh heh

*MOD - CheckSum: Edited for profanity*

Denary · 09/14/2007 12:47:47

They have an "ask the mod" thread now so go ask already SMILEY

Fen · 09/15/2007 23:06:48

I've never really had a problem with players being mods. The only problem I had, was when we were lied to and told that we didn't have player moderators. On the old Lith boards, mods were players and their identities were known. When we switched to the SOE forums, we had "new" moderators that Walrus said were not players, until it was revealed that they were. (And then Walrus' post where he told us that we didn't have player moderators mysteriously dissappeared)

The fact that moderators are players has never bothered me. It's the issue of HOW a moderator is selected that might be questionable. We have no idea on how these moderators are selected, and for what reason. Also, there have been some VERY questionable selections in the past, such as Enigma.

If the person who is selected as a moderator can be fair and not biased, then I don't have a problem. It's also important, in my opinion, that a moderator realizes that they're a part of the community, and not a tool of SOE. The goal of these moderators should be to help make the community better, not just silence the opinions of SOE that SOE does not like to hear, or from people that SOE does not like to hear from.

Ghostwise · 09/16/2007 08:17:15

I don't even care.

GypsyJuggler · 09/17/2007 19:11:23

I think it would be quite different if the Moderators were openly known to the community, perhaps even elected. For instance, imagine if someone who wanted to become a moderator had to post a thread asking for wether or not people would be happy to be moderated by that someone. There are probably reasons why it isn't done that way but I feel it would solve some of the problems we seem to be experiencing.

09/18/2007 01:15:31

GypsyJuggler wrote:

I think it would be quite different if the Moderators were openly known to the community, perhaps even elected. For instance, imagine if someone who wanted to become a moderator had to post a thread asking for wether or not people would be happy to be moderated by that someone. There are probably reasons why it isn't done that way but I feel it would solve some of the problems we seem to be experiencing.

Couldn't that be perceived as just another form of popularity contest?

I like to believe that the moderators are selected for what they are or aren't doing on the forums and for their potential contributions instead of just who they know. Maybe I'm wrong, but I like to think innocent until proven guilty.

GypsyJuggler · 09/18/2007 02:31:16

Hm, I didn't mean to suggest that acceptance by the players should be the only qualification. Respectability, constructiveness, fairness, all the other qualities of a good Moderator come first.

DeadCert · 09/24/2007 01:51:49

I say no to player mods.

Personal vendetas and such have/will continue to cause controvesy on the boards with posts and entire threads going walkies. Mind you who else is gonna moderate the boards lol

ROLLTIDE · 09/24/2007 15:32:13

DeadCert wrote:

I say no to player mods.

Personal vendetas and such have/will continue to cause controvesy on the boards with posts and entire threads going walkies. Mind you who else is gonna moderate the boards lol

Indeed.

DeadCert · 09/25/2007 16:42:32

ROLLTIDE wrote:

DeadCert wrote:
I say no to player mods.

Personal vendetas and such have/will continue to cause controvesy on the boards with posts and entire threads going walkies. Mind you who else is gonna moderate the boards lol

Indeed.

that avatar has me mesmorised...................

Croesis · 09/25/2007 19:23:17

I've no problem with player Mod's as long as they themselves are being Moderated ie. Raijinn.
Moderators should have the decency to keep personal vendetta's with their personal account and not their Moderator account. Any problems with one report it to Raijinn and it shall be investigated. Fuelling that Mod's vendetta by calling them out or bashing them on the forums will not work.
Mod's should tread carefully as any action taken by them that is unjustified should result in that Moderator being suspended or the account being terminated.

We, as users have our posts moderated but we also have the power to report any Moderator that is deemed to be taking actions unjustly.

NightTrace · 10/12/2007 21:18:33

How many of you actually think Joel is an active presence on the forums?

Not many hands.

How many of you think that he is active "behind the scenes" with the mod staff?

About the same amount of hands, more?

He isn't. He shows up when he has to [gets a PM from someone high enough up the "totem pole" of importance to warrant a responce].

He isn't going to watch the mods day to day actions, etc.

New mods are picked on a combination of current mod suggestion, and "its not what you know, but who you know".

On top of that, current "promotions" have caused an actual encouragement of heavy handed moderation, and its allowed.

Example: Despite being baited numerous times, a faction mate of mine is now permently banned from Data Node One.

Do you know why?

Because he violated the rules of the TOS. Yet the people who were TROLLING/BAITING him also broke those SAME Terms of Service, so the question then becomes, why were they not treated the same way?

The answer then turns to, "who are the mods, and what are their personal opinions".

I'm sure many of you have noticed people who frequently spam DN1, without having actions taken against their posts.

Thats all ok, because they know who the mod team is.

Instead of applying the same rules to all of us, some people get more leway, because their friends are mods, OR because if the mod in question DID take action, they would get paragraph long PM crying about the action being taken on their MAIN account.

To wrap this all up: The player moderator system has worked for many SOE games, but The Matrix Online is not one of them, this community is to small for issues to NOT continuously come up. As it stands, we have an amazing failure on our hands.

ShiXinFeng · 10/14/2007 15:17:33

Yeah, after seeing these player mods sticky Havocide's RMC:Terminal thread for buddy keys, when there were only two keys available, I have to say I have had enough of this.

C'mon Mods. Every time you allow this kind of stuff, you just cause more discontent and make things harder. Stop giving this one player everything he asks for while you ignore requests made by other players. If you can't treat everyone the same, you can't treat the one any better.

And please note, I got no ill will against anyone. I just think it should stop because it's so obvious that it's embarrassing.

What's the solution? The solution is to immediately stop over-moderating these forums, stop playing favorites, and let people be people. It's just words. If those words aren't reported by the people who are offended by them, then who are you to censor those words? Naturally, we also need to reduce the number of player mods. Seriously, with only a hundred posts a day, why do we still need a half-dozen moderators?

I mean, why do you think there is less activity on these forums today than there was even three months ago?

Ballak · 10/14/2007 15:39:10

The solution:

The only "mod" I've seen on here that should keep his status is TheJurymen. He's the type of guy that doesn't play MxO anymore but still moderates the forums on a daily basis because he likes the community. I haven't ever found him extremely biased, nor favortised and even though I disagree with some of his decisions he has to go by the book while not "interpreting" it in his own eyes like some of the mods here.

I think the Matrix Online has more player moderators than other SOE games when it's obvious we have the lowest player count of all. Why is that? I don't know, but we're at the point now where there's a Hierarchy system for the moderators. When will it end? The more and more moderators you place on the forums the more and more it's moderated. Soon, you get to the point where everything is so moderated it turns into a ogliarchy. I'm tired of these mods that go over the line and interpret the law in their own way and decide what's wrong and what's right.

We don't need more mods. We need mods that arn't actually stupid and power-hungry like Jurymen. So I guess if we had a cloning machine that'd be the solution but apparently not.

As for Raijinn? Screw him.

#1 He's not really that active. (He gets payed to do this btw)

#2 After he said, "No more custom ranks" Fansite Operator titles and Folder of the Month titles came out.

#3 After the Champagne Room scandal, he basically does the same thing again creating a private forum for Fansite Operators only. *rollseyes*

#4 His "moderator" application process is really just hear-say and recommendating from current moderators. "It's who you know, not what you know." (One of the previous moderators just told Raijinn that he thought there should be more moderators, answered three questions and was accepted. lulz)

#5 He's still yet to get a producer letter from Walrus.

#6 His week review letters are usually generic, unlike Walrus's. 1/2 of which is mainly just Rarebit doing it for him.

#7 He's the one who approved of this moderator hierarchy in the first place.

#8 He'll ban you over Harry Potter spoilers. (lmfao)

#9 Easily one to pick favorites.

#10 Finally, he's the type of person who will do things only so it benefits him. Whether it's to stop the whining or letting others do the work for him, he realizes that there are plenty of people out there that will kiss his *CENSORED* in order to get positions from him so he exploits that. Which in my opinion, is pretty smart but rather lazy and unprofessional.

Havocide · 10/14/2007 16:59:20

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Yeah, after seeing these player mods sticky Havocide's RMC:Terminal thread for buddy keys, when there were only two keys available, I have to say I have had enough of this.

Two keys? There's several hundred remaining. Never assume. Assumption is the mother of all *CENSORED* ups.

Anyway carry on.

ShiXinFeng · 10/14/2007 17:25:20

Havocide wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:
Yeah, after seeing these player mods sticky Havocide's RMC:Terminal thread for buddy keys, when there were only two keys available, I have to say I have had enough of this.

Two keys? There's several hundred remaining. Never assume. Assumption is the mother of all *CENSORED* ups.

Anyway carry on.

Yeah, okay, I went back to see that your "two" response was a joke.

Nevertheless, this isn't about you. This thread isn't about you. This whole topic isn't about you. In fact, I came here to add my voice to the dissenters who are calling for player moderation reform, instead of posting a message in your thread.

However, if you'd like it to be about you, I'm sure there are people on this forum who would oblige. Just keep trolling the posts that have your name in them.

Because, you see, I'll bet if I collected all the buddy keys from my faction mates and other friends on our faction site that I designed, and made a thread in the General Discussion forums offering those keys to people, it wouldn't have gotten stickied. But there are certain players (and I say this to avoid singling any one player out) on these boards who get nearly every thread they create stickied to the top of each forum.

As an example, I can use your "Where are you from?" threads. You started one in each of the World Discussion forums, and each one got stickied, before one of the senior mods came to his senses and said, "yeah, that's not going to fly." By contrast, some time ago, I posted a thread asking for support for a server merge in each of the World Discussion forums and each were promptly locked as spam.

Hmm. . .now I must wonder if that was a coincidence. As I recall, you were vehemently against my idea, weren't you Havocide?

Now perhaps you begin to see the kinds of problems player moderation can cause? The mere appearance of impropriety should be cause for reform.

CheckSum · 10/14/2007 17:36:51

Locked for flaming

*edit: comment removed at request of event organisers*

The concerns some payers have about the moderation system are valid points and they are free to express them.
However when the posts become hostile and abuse is targeted at specific members of the comunity, you can not be surprised if a thread is locked or the offending posts are removed.