[8.1.2] Continued extraction of humans will not be tolerated - Vector - 7/20/07

Pyraci wrote:

Croesus wrote:

There's no point in talking about choice if there is none. Either there is one or there isn't. Plain and simple.

Croesus wrote:

The choice is not if you want in or out of the simulation, it is to whether you accept or reject the reality presented to you. People don't choose out they choose to reject the notion that the world around them is real. This choice is real, this choice is present, this choice is subconscious.

Vinia, not everybody is like the Cypherites. The majority of us that reject it, want out of it. That's human nature. To allow people to reject it and not let them out is going back to the same crap we went through in the beginning. And if that's the case, we're going back to what we've been doing in this war - getting them out anyway.

People need to know what they are in before they can want out, if there is no-one to tell them what they are in, all they know is that something is not right. Given time they'd be able to live with that knowledge and lead productive lives within the simulation.

Zion exists because initially the Machines needed somewhere to house the Humans who have been released from the system allowing the function of the One to cycle, i.e. to release him from the system etc...

Yes, it is true I assume that it can be managed. I assume this because the Machines would not voluntarily do something without regards of the consequences. The consequences being the instability and possible failure of the simulation in total.

I see the "crops" of the first few versions of this lie are proof of that. Good game.

The first few versions were attempts made by the Machines to try to perfect the simulation, provide a paradise or perfect recreation of our civilisation but without the subconscious choice the The Oracle provides the system failed. Humans thrive on choice, not the actual outcome. The Machines, who think differently to Humans did not know of this stipulation of needing a choice before the Oracle came along, so what happened in the first few versions was not voluntary.

If you require hard evidence then how about not releasing anyone for a while.....

How about no? Unlike your colleagues, I'm not willing to deny human beings the truth because Colonel Sanders finds it fitting to react that way.

Heh, I thought not! Up until Zion's brazen violation of the truce, the Machines did not deny Humans who reject the simulation the truth either as they were released with no recourse from Agents or Operatives.

Pyraci wrote:

There's no point in talking about choice if there is none. Either there is one or there isn't. Plain and simple.

The illusion of having thought is the same as the illusion of having choice. If you think, it happens through the nature of inevitability, not because you are an intelligent being capable of thought. Of course something would need to be capable of "thought" to be able to "think". I just imply that even if you're capable of thought, the reason why you are capable of it is because in the end, everything made you to be. You think because everything, every action and reaction makes you think.
No matter how far anybody goes into discovering the secrets of nature, nobody would be able to calculate the so-called "Butterfly effect", the event of something completely "unrelated" happening because of another event. This inability to understand, comprehend, gives birth to both the words "fate" and "choice". But both are incorrect. Choice is an illusion because everything that has been leading to the choice has happenend (including the appropriate signals in the brain leading to the conclusion what choice to make) and everything after the choice will happen in exactly one way. Fate is an incorrect word because it implies knowledge. The strike of fate, if it happens, happened not because the being believed or knew it will happen, but because it was inevitable.

This concept of inevitability cannot be understood or grasped by the feeble human interlect, nor by the cold logic of the Machines. The Machines don't need to bother question the inevitability and humans don't need to find the answer to the question that lead us where we are: "Are we free?"

Now even if I accept that everything happens as it happens, unchangeable, without choice, nothing I will do will change. I'll still make choices, think and behave because of these. I cannot try to behave because of inevitability, I will anyways.

Pyraci wrote:

Croesus wrote:

The choice is not if you want in or out of the simulation, it is to whether you accept or reject the reality presented to you. People don't choose out they choose to reject the notion that the world around them is real. This choice is real, this choice is present, this choice is subconscious.

Vinia, not everybody is like the Cypherites. The majority of us that reject it, want out of it. That's human nature. To allow people to reject it and not let them out is going back to the same crap we went through in the beginning. And if that's the case, we're going back to what we've been doing in this war - getting them out anyway.

People need to know what they are in before they can want out, if there is no-one to tell them what they are in, all they know is that something is not right. Given time they'd be able to live with that knowledge and lead productive lives within the simulation.



People can't understand what the Matrix really is until they experience it for themselves as it really is. Sure, you can keep them in, but that's what breeds transcendents, causing others to question the Matrix too. Remember that little training mission before you decide to join an organization.

Zion exists because initially the Machines needed somewhere to house the Humans who have been released from the system allowing the function of the One to cycle, i.e. to release him from the system etc...

Yes, it is true I assume that it can be managed. I assume this because the Machines would not voluntarily do something without regards of the consequences. The consequences being the instability and possible failure of the simulation in total.

I see the "crops" of the first few versions of this lie are proof of that. Good game.

The first few versions were attempts made by the Machines to try to perfect the simulation, provide a paradise or perfect recreation of our civilisation but without the subconscious choice the The Oracle provides the system failed. Humans thrive on choice, not the actual outcome. The Machines, who think differently to Humans did not know of this stipulation of needing a choice before the Oracle came along, so what happened in the first few versions was not voluntary.

Ah, so you're saying all those lives were experiments... Gotcha. Wouldn't be surprised actually, seeing all the shells of humans that were tested and processed to fit in this lie.

Heheh, that subconscious choice to accept or reject existed as long as the Matrix didn't, not the Oracle. The Oracle's choice is in or out. Red or blue.

If you require hard evidence then how about not releasing anyone for a while.....

How about no? Unlike your colleagues, I'm not willing to deny human beings the truth because Colonel Sanders finds it fitting to react that way.

Heh, I thought not! Up until Zion's brazen violation of the truce, the Machines did not deny Humans who reject the simulation the truth either as they were released with no recourse from Agents or Operatives.

*shrugs* Won't stop me, and the rest of Zion/EPN though. Be seein' ya.

Ah, so you're saying all those lives were experiments... Gotcha. Wouldn't be surprised actually, seeing all the shells of humans that were tested and processed to fit in this lie.

Heheh, that subconscious choice to accept or reject existed as long as the Matrix didn't, not the Oracle. The Oracle's choice is in or out. Red or blue.

Pyraci wrote:

Ah, so you're saying all those lives were experiments... Gotcha. Wouldn't be surprised actually, seeing all the shells of humans that were tested and processed to fit in this lie.

Heheh, that subconscious choice to accept or reject existed as long as the Matrix didn't, not the Oracle. The Oracle's choice is in or out. Red or blue.

I can't say if those lives were experiments or not. They were lost due to the lack of knowledge of the Machines trying to create an environment for humans to exist in. Remember they were at war at the time, rules of war were not followed by either side, Machines tried to find out how Humans work so that they can be put into this artificial reality and live 'normal' lives whilst Humans hunted down and destroyed Machines. At least the deaths of the Humans resulted in life for new generations in this reality.

It's a shame that extractions are no longer permitted...hopefully they will be reinstated at some time in the future.  But for now, Zion's free ride is over. 

As for the question of age at extraction, I've already suggested why Zion has traditionally targeted the young.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/afric...iers/index.html

Children are more easily manipulated than adults -- so any sorrow or anger they have towards those who ripped them away from their parents, their lives, can be redirected into hatred for 'the Enemy'. 

Illyria

Hahah, showing people that feel this place is a lie and want out is them being "brainwashing or drugged before being forced to fight"? Yeah, ok.

Ironically enough - "Warlords are forcing children in conflicts around the world to become killing machines"

Not quite, hun. Zion never asked for a "free ride". Nor is it forcing anyone to become anything. Keep lying to them to keep them asleep, and we'll keep telling them the truth to wake them up, whether the Machine will "allow" us or not.

(Heh, I was going to say that article is a little much, but ok.)

A truce isn't *forever*, and was never intended to be. Humanity won't live under the control of the Machine *forever* - Ezechiel

It is very easy to manipulate the mind of a child.  You awaken them and tell them that they were slaves.  You tell them that humanity is being subjugated by the machines.  You tell them that the moral thing to do is to help out humanity by awakening their fellow humans still plugged into the Matrix.  They sleep in caves, have no shoes or clothes and have no food other than goop.  They see soldiers leaving in hovercraft and not ever coming back.  They hold rallies in a temple and shout to the machines reminiscent of Nations chanting "Death to America."  Finally they are old enough to become operatives themselves.  After years of training or brainwashing they are ready to do their part against the evil machines.  They then hear something like this....

Morpheus : The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see?

people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy.

As adults they now view the system and all attached to it as the enemy.  They justify taking blue pill lives in the system as necessary and self defense for the greater good.  What they are doing is righteous and just.  They are the saviors of humanity.  Fortunately for my sister who was young when taken she could not break the bond she had for me her brother.  They told her that it was not real and made up by the machines.  They told her to forget about me and that none of it was real.  Well she could not do that and she came back for me.

Then these people run into someone like me, a machinist.  They learn the rest of "The Truth."  They learn that the reason humans live in that hole in the ground is because of what humanity did.  They learn that it was not necessary to blacken the sky and kill all life on the planet.  They learn that they had a chance to live in peace and made a choice.  The choice they made almost caused us to be extinct.  They learn that it was the machines who ironically saved us from ourselves.  They learn that bluepills are still humans and their life is just as important as a redpills life.  They learn that humanity has caught itself in a vicious cycle that only ends one way and that is with Zions destruction.  They learn that there is another choice to make, one that involves not just saving humanity, but saving all life forms.  They are then taught about human history and the atrocities we have committed.

And despite learning all this new information they instinctly revert back to the brainwashing they had as a child.  The emotional memories of that operative who taught you how to do a back kick, came home in a body bag.  You think about the person who you admired and wanted to be like when you grew up and learned that a sentinel killed him and his crew.  You remember that machines are holding humans as slaves despite the fact that bluepills are living a better existence than redpills.  You discard that you learned that the mind makes things real, so as far as blue pills are concerned they are living out their full lives.  The brainwashing emotions kick in which allow you to overlook all logic and common sense.  You have a duty as a Zion soldier and that is to destory the machines and claim back the Earth.  You become a "Killing machine."

The irony of that term killing machine.  Where did it come from?  Why don't we say a "killing human?"  That is because the term itself is biased.  Machines are far more than killing machines.  They are also compassionate, merciful, caring, comforting.  The Exiles have grown beyond their programing to become more, to have the same feelings that these words we use imply.  The simple fact that they could make us comatose and use our body heat instead of creating this extravagant simulation is proof that they at least care.  The first system was a utopia that the human mind still rejected.  However all of these facts will always be overlooked by the brainwashed troops from zion who can never see outside of their own prism.  They will not even attempt to see things as the machines do.  Because to do so would be to reject the brainwashed program that they were raised in.  A generation of lost souls.  How many blue pills did Neo kill before he uttered this..."Either nobody told me?  Or nobody knows."

"People don't ask for facts when making up their minds.  They would rather have one good, soul-satisfying emotion than a dozen facts."

"People are very open-minded about new things--as long as they're exactly like the old ones.  It's amazing what ordinary people can do if they set out without preconceived notions." - Charles Kettering

Wow... I really hate to say it, but your rhetoric sounds like propaganda that has been perpetuated by the machine.  You accuse us of  spewing trash to "brainwash" the masses, but I think you should look in the mirror when you make such accusations.

I submit this:

1) The machine has to keep us alive to make the energy it needs to survive.
2) Humans must be comfortable and happy so they do not know that they are in a situation that is so appalling, they would have no alternative but to get out.

This great and selfless machine that you propose cares about us, has an extremely self serving motive and it comes down to this nugget that I was told in a child's fairly tale before awakening:

If you kill the golden goose, you don't get anymore golden eggs.

So... you really think that they give two hoot about us except for food?  I think not...

Wow... I really hate to say it, but your rhetoric sounds like propaganda that has been perpetuated by the machine.  You accuse us of  spewing trash to "brainwash" the masses, but I think you should look in the mirror when you make such accusations.

I submit this:

1) The machine has to keep us alive to make the energy it needs to survive.
2) Humans must be comfortable and happy so they do not know that they are in a situation that is so appalling, they would have no alternative but to get out.

This great and selfless machine that you propose cares about us, has an extremely self serving motive and it comes down to this nugget that I was told in a child's fairly tale before awakening:

If you kill the golden goose, you don't get anymore golden eggs.

So... you really think that they give two hoot about us except for food?  I think not...

A new face has entered the debate.  Welcome to the communications channel Serinity.  I trust your brainwashing will be of some use to you here although futile in the end.

1) The machines keep us alive to make the energy it needs to survive.  And why do they need this energy to survive?  Why not use other mammals that could produce greater body energy such as cows?  Let me give you some wisdom.  If you ever see a current action taking place it is wise to ask why the action must take place to begin with.

2) Humans must be comforted and happy?  The very first simulation was a utopia and the humans rejected it.  Why are the machines even bothering if they could just keep everyone comatose and not deal with it.  The body can survive without the brain functioning so why the trouble?

If you trully want to be effective then learn every single point that your opponent can make and learn how to counter it with substance.  Failure to do so leaves you unarmed in the argument and prone to learn many new things you didn't know about.  I am sure I can argue your point of view better than you my friend. 

Pyraci wrote:

Hahah, showing people that feel this place is a lie and want out is them being "brainwashing or drugged before being forced to fight"? Yeah, ok.

Ironically enough - "Warlords are forcing children in conflicts around the world to become killing machines"

Not quite, hun. Zion never asked for a "free ride". Nor is it forcing anyone to become anything. Keep lying to them to keep them asleep, and we'll keep telling them the truth to wake them up, whether the Machine will "allow" us or not.

(Heh, I was going to say that article is a little much, but ok.)

A truce isn't *forever*, and was never intended to be. Humanity won't live under the control of the Machine *forever* - Ezechiel

Ironic or not is the fact that the old are shunned from being awakened and the young are more sought after.  Is it because the old that are awakened would challenge the Zion mythos and tell them to go shove it?  To pretend that all you do is tell the truth is a fallacy upon itself.  Whose truth are you telling?  I was awakened as a full grown adult which was not permitted.  I was not apart of that 1% who rejected the system.  I was saved by my sister from being killed in a war I didn't understand involving man and machine.  I worked for the government.  My primary job was to track down these terrorists known as Zionists.  We had no clue just what a Zionist was and attributed it to a cult following whose leader named Morpheus made Jim Jones seem like Mickey Mouse.  It was likely that I would have ended up dead just like my father who was a police officer to the hands of Zionites doing what they do in the simulation.

It is very easy to manipulate the mind of a child.  You awaken them and tell them that they were slaves.  You tell them that humanity is being subjugated by the machines.  You tell them that the moral thing to do is to help out humanity by awakening their fellow humans still plugged into the Matrix.  They sleep in caves, have no shoes or clothes and have no food other than goop.  They see soldiers leaving in hovercraft and not ever coming back.  They hold rallies in a temple and shout to the machines reminiscent of Nations chanting "Death to America."  Finally they are old enough to become operatives themselves.  After years of training or brainwashing they are ready to do their part against the evil machines.  They then hear something like this....

Morpheus : The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see?

Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these

people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy.

As adults they now view the system and all attached to it as the enemy.  They justify taking blue pill lives in the system as necessary and self defense for the greater good.  What they are doing is righteous and just.  They are the saviors of humanity.  Fortunately for my sister who was young when taken she could not break the bond she had for me her brother.  They told her that it was not real and made up by the machines.  They told her to forget about me and that none of it was real.  Well she could not do that and she came back for me.

Then these people run into someone like me, a machinist.  They learn the rest of "The Truth."  They learn that the reason humans live in that hole in the ground is because of what humanity did.  They learn that it was not necessary to blacken the sky and kill all life on the planet.  They learn that they had a chance to live in peace and made a choice.  The choice they made almost caused us to be extinct.  They learn that it was the machines who ironically saved us from ourselves.  They learn that bluepills are still humans and their life is just as important as a redpills life.  They learn that humanity has caught itself in a vicious cycle that only ends one way and that is with Zions destruction.  They learn that there is another choice to make, one that involves not just saving humanity, but saving all life forms.  They are then taught about human history and the atrocities we have committed.

And despite learning all this new information they instinctly revert back to the brainwashing they had as a child.  The emotional memories of that operative who taught you how to do a back kick, came home in a body bag.  You think about the person who you admired and wanted to be like when you grew up and learned that a sentinel killed him and his crew.  You remember that machines are holding humans as slaves despite the fact that bluepills are living a better existence than redpills.  You discard that you learned that the mind makes things real, so as far as blue pills are concerned they are living out their full lives.  The brainwashing emotions kick in which allow you to overlook all logic and common sense.  You have a duty as a Zion soldier and that is to destory the machines and claim back the Earth.  You become a "Killing machine."

The irony of that term killing machine.  Where did it come from?  Why don't we say a "killing human?"  That is because the term itself is biased.  Machines are far more than killing machines.  They are also compassionate, merciful, caring, comforting.  The Exiles have grown beyond their programing to become more, to have the same feelings that these words we use imply.  The simple fact that they could make us comatose and use our body heat instead of creating this extravagant simulation is proof that they at least care.  The first system was a utopia that the human mind still rejected.  However all of these facts will always be overlooked by the brainwashed troops from zion who can never see outside of their own prism.  They will not even attempt to see things as the machines do.  Because to do so would be to reject the brainwashed program that they were raised in.  A generation of lost souls.  How many blue pills did Neo kill before he uttered this..."Either nobody told me?  Or nobody knows."

"People don't ask for facts when making up their minds.  They would rather have one good, soul-satisfying emotion than a dozen facts."

"People are very open-minded about new things--as long as they're exactly like the old ones.  It's amazing what ordinary people can do if they set out without preconceived notions." - Charles Kettering

A truce isn't *forever*, and was never intended to be. Humanity won't live under the control of the Machine *forever* - Ezechiel

Pyraci wrote:

A truce isn't *forever*, and was never intended to be. Humanity won't live under the control of the Machine *forever* - Ezechiel

The question is, what happens when the truce ends. And no, it isn't over, yet.

Satta wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

Hahah, showing people that feel this place is a lie and want out is them being "brainwashing or drugged before being forced to fight"? Yeah, ok.

Ironically enough - "Warlords are forcing children in conflicts around the world to become killing machines"

Not quite, hun. Zion never asked for a "free ride". Nor is it forcing anyone to become anything. Keep lying to them to keep them asleep, and we'll keep telling them the truth to wake them up, whether the Machine will "allow" us or not.

(Heh, I was going to say that article is a little much, but ok.)

A truce isn't *forever*, and was never intended to be. Humanity won't live under the control of the Machine *forever* - Ezechiel

Ironic or not is the fact that the old are shunned from being awakened and the young are more sought after.  Is it because the old that are awakened would challenge the Zion mythos and tell them to go shove it?  To pretend that all you do is tell the truth is a fallacy upon itself.  Whose truth are you telling?  I was awakened as a full grown adult which was not permitted.  I was not apart of that 1% who rejected the system.  I was saved by my sister from being killed in a war I didn't understand involving man and machine.  I worked for the government.  My primary job was to track down these terrorists known as Zionists.  We had no clue just what a Zionist was and attributed it to a cult following whose leader named Morpheus made Jim Jones seem like Mickey Mouse.  It was likely that I would have ended up dead just like my father who was a police officer to the hands of Zionites doing what they do in the simulation.

It is very easy to manipulate the mind of a child.  You awaken them and tell them that they were slaves.  You tell them that humanity is being subjugated by the machines.  You tell them that the moral thing to do is to help out humanity by awakening their fellow humans still plugged into the Matrix.  They sleep in caves, have no shoes or clothes and have no food other than goop.  They see soldiers leaving in hovercraft and not ever coming back.  They hold rallies in a temple and shout to the machines reminiscent of Nations chanting "Death to America."  Finally they are old enough to become operatives themselves.  After years of training or brainwashing they are ready to do their part against the evil machines.  They then hear something like this....

Morpheus : The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see?

Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these

people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy.

As adults they now view the system and all attached to it as the enemy.  They justify taking blue pill lives in the system as necessary and self defense for the greater good.  What they are doing is righteous and just.  They are the saviors of humanity.  Fortunately for my sister who was young when taken she could not break the bond she had for me her brother.  They told her that it was not real and made up by the machines.  They told her to forget about me and that none of it was real.  Well she could not do that and she came back for me.

Then these people run into someone like me, a machinist.  They learn the rest of "The Truth."  They learn that the reason humans live in that hole in the ground is because of what humanity did.  They learn that it was not necessary to blacken the sky and kill all life on the planet.  They learn that they had a chance to live in peace and made a choice.  The choice they made almost caused us to be extinct.  They learn that it was the machines who ironically saved us from ourselves.  They learn that bluepills are still humans and their life is just as important as a redpills life.  They learn that humanity has caught itself in a vicious cycle that only ends one way and that is with Zions destruction.  They learn that there is another choice to make, one that involves not just saving humanity, but saving all life forms.  They are then taught about human history and the atrocities we have committed.

And despite learning all this new information they instinctly revert back to the brainwashing they had as a child.  The emotional memories of that operative who taught you how to do a back kick, came home in a body bag.  You think about the person who you admired and wanted to be like when you grew up and learned that a sentinel killed him and his crew.  You remember that machines are holding humans as slaves despite the fact that bluepills are living a better existence than redpills.  You discard that you learned that the mind makes things real, so as far as blue pills are concerned they are living out their full lives.  The brainwashing emotions kick in which allow you to overlook all logic and common sense.  You have a duty as a Zion soldier and that is to destory the machines and claim back the Earth.  You become a "Killing machine."

The irony of that term killing machine.  Where did it come from?  Why don't we say a "killing human?"  That is because the term itself is biased.  Machines are far more than killing machines.  They are also compassionate, merciful, caring, comforting.  The Exiles have grown beyond their programing to become more, to have the same feelings that these words we use imply.  The simple fact that they could make us comatose and use our body heat instead of creating this extravagant simulation is proof that they at least care.  The first system was a utopia that the human mind still rejected.  However all of these facts will always be overlooked by the brainwashed troops from zion who can never see outside of their own prism.  They will not even attempt to see things as the machines do.  Because to do so would be to reject the brainwashed program that they were raised in.  A generation of lost souls.  How many blue pills did Neo kill before he uttered this..."Either nobody told me?  Or nobody knows."

"People don't ask for facts when making up their minds.  They would rather have one good, soul-satisfying emotion than a dozen facts."

"People are very open-minded about new things--as long as they're exactly like the old ones.  It's amazing what ordinary people can do if they set out without preconceived notions." - Charles Kettering

*shrugs* This supposed to intimidate me or something?

To assume what everyone in Zion does without being there is a fallacy upon itself. You don't know me, cuzin', and I don't know you. I tell the truth as I see it, the same way you do. I'm not here to illegitimize your cause or what a machinist is about. I'm just saying that some of us want our freedom from the Machine.

You're d@mned right we tell them that they were slaves. They didn't choose to be born into the Matrix. They didn't choose to be forced to live a lie day in and day out to power the Machine.

But hey, the only person that came remotely close to addressing the original point in all this was Vinia, so until I can get an answer to it without half a page of unrelated machinist propaganda, I rest my case. If you don't like what I'm about, you all know where to find me.

(Was all that necessary? I mean really. This is about how the Matrix is affected by bluepills not being awakened, not what life is like living in Zion or breeding "killing machines".)

A truce isn't *forever*, and was never intended to be. Humanity won't live under the control of the Machine *forever* - Ezechiel

Yes I do feel that was necessary.  I have never heard anybody give a point of view from the angle I am.  Someone who sees things from the eyes of a bluepill who then becomes a redpill.  I don't need to "assume" what goes on in Zion, we know what goes on in Zion and the different beliefs.

You tell them that they are slaves and that they didn't choose to be born in the Matrix.  Do any of us choose where we are born?  I gave an alternative view that while you may consider them slaves they are living a fulfilling existence inside the Matrix, far from bondage because they believe they have "choice."  You call what I spew machinist propoganda and I call what you spew Zionite propoganda.  *shrug*

Dear Serinity no disrespect was intended, I look at your post count and it said "1" therefore you are new to the debate.  Unless you have been actively involved under another name that you did not identify then it is perfectly logical for me to say exactly what I did.  No need to assume anything those are the facts.  Now if you would like to enlighten us on your expertise then please do so.

Dear Serinity no disrespect was intended, I look at your post count and it said "1" therefore you are new to the debate.  Unless you have been actively involved under another name that you did not identify then it is perfectly logical for me to say exactly what I did.  No need to assume anything those are the facts.  Now if you would like to enlighten us on your expertise then please do so.

Yes I do feel that was necessary.  I have never heard anybody give a point of view from the angle I am.  Someone who sees things from the eyes of a bluepill who then becomes a redpill.  I don't need to "assume" what goes on in Zion, we know what goes on in Zion and the different beliefs.

You tell them that they are slaves and that they didn't choose to be born in the Matrix.  Do any of us choose where we are born?  I gave an alternative view that while you may consider them slaves they are living a fulfilling existence inside the Matrix, far from bondage because they believe they have "choice."  You call what I spew machinist propoganda and I call what you spew Zionite propoganda.  *shrug*

Dear Serinity no disrespect was intended, I look at your post count and it said "1" therefore you are new to the debate.  Unless you have been actively involved under another name that you did not identify then it is perfectly logical for me to say exactly what I did.  No need to assume anything those are the facts.  Now if you would like to enlighten us on your expertise then please do so.

Yes I do feel that was necessary.  I have never heard anybody give a point of view from the angle I am.  Someone who sees things from the eyes of a bluepill who then becomes a redpill.  I don't need to "assume" what goes on in Zion, we know what goes on in Zion and the different beliefs.

You tell them that they are slaves and that they didn't choose to be born in the Matrix.  Do any of us choose where we are born?  I gave an alternative view that while you may consider them slaves they are living a fulfilling existence inside the Matrix, far from bondage because they believe they have "choice."  You call what I spew machinist propoganda and I call what you spew Zionite propoganda.  *shrug*

Dear Serinity no disrespect was intended, I look at your post count and it said "1" therefore you are new to the debate.  Unless you have been actively involved under another name that you did not identify then it is perfectly logical for me to say exactly what I did.  No need to assume anything those are the facts.  Now if you would like to enlighten us on your expertise then please do so.

Satta wrote:

Yes I do feel that was necessary.  I have never heard anybody give a point of view from the angle I am.  Someone who sees things from the eyes of a bluepill who then becomes a redpill.  I don't need to "assume" what goes on in Zion, we know what goes on in Zion and the different beliefs.

You tell them that they are slaves and that they didn't choose to be born in the Matrix.  Do any of us choose where we are born?  I gave an alternative view that while you may consider them slaves they are living a fulfilling existence inside the Matrix, far from bondage because they believe they have "choice."  You call what I spew machinist propoganda and I call what you spew Zionite propoganda.  *shrug*

Dear Serinity no disrespect was intended, I look at your post count and it said "1" therefore you are new to the debate.  Unless you have been actively involved under another name that you did not identify then it is perfectly logical for me to say exactly what I did.  No need to assume anything those are the facts.  Now if you would like to enlighten us on your expertise then please do so.

** OOC

Heh, I'm not too big into argumentum ad hominem, but if you want to go there...

What you said is all well and good, but the question I asked was out of character I asked it because with all due respect, your subjective history and your take on what Zion does with or says to redpills doesn't explain the subject at hand: The issues and instability of the Matrix due to keeping people from waking up.

Hey, if you want to keep arguing about why Zion brainwashes people and how they sin against the almighty, immaculate machine, that's cool. I just think this is starting to digress from what the discussion is supposed to be about.

** IC

Then to each his own. I've said my piece and I don't expect you or anyone else to listen. Besides, I've yet to see how the Matrix is going to avoid mass rejection by keeping people plugged in that want out. Pointing the finger and calling Zion a terrorist network over and over again isn't answering that.

Arguing isn't going to save the Matrix, nor Zion. This is a war - Serenity, myself, and all of Zion/EPN are ready to fight to end it.

Keep running your mouth here, if you wish. I have more productive things to do.

An interesting debate has been going on back and forth for the past week over the status of awakenings.  The Architect said no more Awakenings are to be aloud.  Arguments have been flying all over the place as to what this means.  The machines are not allowing any more bluepills to be pulled from the Matrix?  Are machinists allowed to do the Awakenings?  Wouldn't this harm the machines if they keep the 1% plugged in?  What will happen to the 1% that rejects the system and nobody is there to wake them up?

I have thought about this and came up with a solution.  Simple logic and deduction will give you the answer.  Let's deal with the facts and what was literally said.  The Truce is over and no more Awakenings are to be allowed.  Well one perk of the Truce is that the Architect allowed anyone who wanted to be freed to be freed.  Zionites were allowed to operate freely and free anyone who rejected the system.

Now with the truce over Zion is no longer permitted that freedom.  However that does not stop the 1% from rejecting the system.  Now this is the most important part.  Just because a human starts to reject or question the system does not mean that they self-substantiate.  The vast majority of bluepills require redpill assistance to awaken.  Only 1% become aware that something is not right, not that they all actually wake up.  This is very important to understand because the machines can survive if they do not wake up.  Overtime the sheer number of these people would overwhelm the system, or the human dies.  This 1% being removed from the system was only another means of control to facilitate the cycle of the "ONE."

Now with the truce over that only means a return to the way things were prior to the Truce.  Zionites were secretly invading the Matrix and illegaly removing blue-pills.  It is best to assume that Zionites will continue to operate in that same function.

Here is where this creates a problem for us machinists.  We have not been given a clear description of what our goals are as far as from machine leadership.  Each faction has our own goals and The Collective certainly has an agenda.  However we pledge to protect all life especially blue pill life.  We cannot stand aside and watch blue pills who become aware die because we are effecient in removing any Zionites who attempt to awaken them and remove them from the system.  This is sort of a catch-22.  Before there were machinists the Agents were the primary protectors of the system, yet they still allowed for some blue pills to awaken and never completely shut off the flow of awakenings.  If there was ever a point I would question and need clarity on from the machines then this is the point.  We do not have enough information to go on.

So for now we will continue to do our job and view any Zionites running loose in the system unauthorized as a threat to the system.  We are not presented with a crisis at this time.

"Despite what might happen, I'm fighting for Zion. Because Zion is humanity in my opinion. It encompasses all that which makes us human." - Mave

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

A truce isn't *forever*, and was never intended to be. Humanity won't live under the control of the Machine *forever* - Ezechiel

The question is, what happens when the truce ends. And no, it isn't over, yet.

Just have your warez ready.

  Freedom's an unyielding river. You can't contain it, you can only hope to slow its course.  Eliminating extraction points does nothing but penalize humans like you and me that want out of 'the system'.  Just remember, freeing minds will never cease so long as they can choose to walk through the door.  We just have to work harder to make sure somone isn't trying to lock it before they get there.

I really can't agree with your actions anymore Agent Pace nor anyone who celebrates the removal of these kind of sites. Extraction points are the symbol of a human's freedom to choose out and thats something to be respected not destroyed.

Pyraci wrote:

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

A truce isn't *forever*, and was never intended to be. Humanity won't live under the control of the Machine *forever* - Ezechiel

The question is, what happens when the truce ends. And no, it isn't over, yet.

Just have your warez ready.

The only "warez" I have in the real world would be my naked body and the pod it's connected to.

Satta wrote:

Dear Serinity no disrespect was intended, I look at your post count and it said "1" therefore you are new to the debate.  Unless you have been actively involved under another name that you did not identify then it is perfectly logical for me to say exactly what I did.  No need to assume anything those are the facts.  Now if you would like to enlighten us on your expertise then please do so.

That name has not rung only one bell in my ears. Just take a look at the name of the Hovercraft she serves on (under avatar). If the name does ring any bells, then you know that this is no ... newbie.


Delighted to meet you, Serenity *bow*

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Satta wrote:

Dear Serinity no disrespect was intended, I look at your post count and it said "1" therefore you are new to the debate.  Unless you have been actively involved under another name that you did not identify then it is perfectly logical for me to say exactly what I did.  No need to assume anything those are the facts.  Now if you would like to enlighten us on your expertise then please do so.

That name has not rung only one bell in my ears. Just take a look at the name of the Hovercraft she serves on (under avatar). If the name does ring any bells, then you know that this is no ... newbie.


Delighted to meet you, Serenity *bow*

Satta:  I understand that no disrespect was intended.  I can also understand where your confusion would come into play.  As far as my "expertise" goes, suffice to say that I'm the First Mate of the HvCft Defiant as Godgiver noticed.

((As far as the rest goes, my main has been in MxO since November of '04.  Who that character is of little to no consequence.))

Godgiver:  Thank you.  It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance as well.  Hopefully, I'll see you around.

Inqubus:  Yeah what you said...  *grins*