The Lines between the 4 main tree's

#36300231364 05/06/2007 14:18:35 The Lines between the 4 main tree's

Currently as you know the 4 tree's are arranged in this order

---- < MA < Gunners < MKT < Hacker < ----

I've been running as a Gunman for a year and 4 months now, I find it really easy to kill MA and difficult to kill MKT, as you would expect, I fought a friend who was another Gunman, I fought him 5 times, won 4 times. now it's not proof that I'm better than him or anything you'd need to do it a lot more than 5 times to get anywhere near to proving who was better but since I didn't feel like sitting at my computer for 2 weeks testing I thought 5 times was enough, I restat as MA, putting good buffs into belief and focus with the rest in perception, I do a little PvP to find out if the build was any good and later on I go and do another 5 duels with my friend, he kicks my *CENSORED* usually only getting about 1-3 hits in max.

Ok, theres the anecdote, the point is that there is a huge gap between the power of MA compared to the power of Gunman, the same as with the power of Gunner to the power of MKT and so forth, now we all know that due to the order of the 4 tree's, each having a weakness and a strong point, I'm sure MKT's have a lot of trouble with Hacker and I know Hacker has a lot of trouble with MA's. The point is maybe the gap is too big?

I'm thinking it would be better if we could close the gap somehow to something less, I'm not the best Gunman on the Vector server but I can still beat Madbent (The best MA on Vector <-- see I evened it out a little SMILEY

) It may take a while but theres nothing people can complain about, it would mean that MA can take on Gunmen a little easier and have a chance to hit but they have to watch out more for Hackers, and it's the same for all 4 tree's.

I want serious discussion, I'm not going to let this one go down the same road as most other discussions of the same subject, any flaming I will report immediately and ask for the post to be moved off the thread.

#36300231386 05/06/2007 14:36:10 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

In my experiences the lines between the builds aren't truly as large as they seem to be.

The Patch v. 1.2 | The Guide

#36300231396 05/06/2007 14:43:50 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

Bayamo wrote:

In my experiences the lines between the builds aren't truly as large as they seem to be.

Yeh I've found ways to beat MKT's but for an MA to go against a Gunman there isn't much they can do, an MA relies on IL, if they go up against a rifleman then they are going to have trouble doing that, since they have a lack of Ballistic defense ect. but Gunman have Defense far superior to any other tree, and the only defense that MA's have is resistance.

#36300231545 05/06/2007 16:23:48 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

A seasoned gunman should beat a seasoned MA, as per traditionally stat's. As Bay says however, this isn't always the case. There are many variables to consider, and if in your experience you've seen that an MA can't beat a gunman, then you haven't seen enough.

I can't deny that a Duelist has a plethora of defense versus an MA, but it's in no way an impossible task for the hapless martial artist.

#36300231566 05/06/2007 17:17:24 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

I tend to have more problems 1 on 1 with a MA, it depends what damage I can get done out of IL (Though I will admit I am not the best fighter) I fail horribly against MKT, MAssassin I can usually land a few more hits and if the states come up I can sometimes take them down but the states make it more on luck and I can really give Hackers a hard time, I tend to stay out of IL against them till I land a FAR, mabey break their shield but keep grap up to land Point Blank.

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#36300231572 05/06/2007 17:31:14 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

Well, for guns v MA there are a few areas to consider. MAs have godly damage, so a Karate / Kungfu build could tank to low health, use desperation, and Sky High / EFK / Machinegunfist on prowess, and the gunman would be near death.

Alternatively, just because stats are accepted as the common "good stats," other options do well. Aikido, which doesn't rely on accuracy as compared to defense, does quite well against guns with Gunner stats. Tested Aikido w/ gun stats against Yasamuu's Duelist and it was pretty even.

The Patch v. 1.2 | The Guide

#36300231660 05/06/2007 22:27:19 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

In my modest experience the balance here is just right.
Each class has just the right amount of advantage over the next but can still be defeated by a skilled enough opponent.

#36300231688 05/07/2007 01:05:42 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

Maybe it is just in my head, I'd only just tested that MA build for about an hour but it was my old MA build before I switched and I did have all the clothes aswell, Kung fu/Karate and I couldn't touch him, Though Hacker is seriously disadvantaged against MA, with their average accuracy in the 130's and an MAs goes into 160s-170s it's not often you'll hit, and that self accuracy buff doesn't last long enough to give all the help, and usually an MA can still rip them apart.

As you guys said there are exceptions to the rules, if an Aikido manages to get a Tomo it's deadly for anyone even with max resistance if it was done on power tactic it's a good 1000 hp gone to hell but it doesn't exclude the fact that getting a grab hit with Aikido is incredibly hard against a Gunman, I'm sure any Hackers can verify that MA's are hellish to beat and pretty much all Gunmen have a hard time against Spies.

#36300231692 05/07/2007 02:01:44 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

I've never really had a problem hacking MAs in interlock. I mean, it's a lot easier of course to hack them from outside but once they tackle me I can still get off a lot of attacks. The difference is they can do more damage than me with their own specials.
I had a duel the other night where I fought an MA one level higher than me and if I hadn't missed with my Logic Cannon I would have won the fight. I might still have won if I hadn't let him get into interlock, and even then it was close.
I don't mean to say I'm really good or you're really bad or anything like that, I rather think it's just the way CR2 works. Sometimes you have a good day, sometimes a bad day.

#36300231700 05/07/2007 03:00:36 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

ATM I feel MKT still stands a very good chance against hackers. As a hacker I smash gunners quite regularly with little effort, but MKT's are a much greater challenge for me. Due to Hackers lacking Passive thrown defense and MKT's having a ludicrously high accuracy Hackers still have trouble in IL with an MKT, let alone dodging Punts/Suplexes.

If you are reading this my sig didn't work T_T

#36300231712 05/07/2007 03:23:43 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

noctivagus wrote:

A seasoned gunman should beat a seasoned MA, as per traditionally stat's. As Bay says however, this isn't always the case. There are many variables to consider, and if in your experience you've seen that an MA can't beat a gunman, then you haven't seen enough.
I can't deny that a Duelist has a plethora of defense versus an MA, but it's in no way an impossible task for the hapless martial artist.

I would like to take this time to point out that since I've come back and sacrificed my melee accuracy for ballistic defense stats, I have trashed many gunners in PvP and my win rate in duels is over 50% against them.

#36300231767 05/07/2007 05:31:26 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

Fatmop wrote:

noctivagus wrote:
A seasoned gunman should beat a seasoned MA, as per traditionally stat's. As Bay says however, this isn't always the case. There are many variables to consider, and if in your experience you've seen that an MA can't beat a gunman, then you haven't seen enough.
I can't deny that a Duelist has a plethora of defense versus an MA, but it's in no way an impossible task for the hapless martial artist.
I would like to take this time to point out that since I've come back and sacrificed my melee accuracy for ballistic defense stats, I have trashed many gunners in PvP and my win rate in duels is over 50% against them.

It's amazing what the extra ballistic defense can do. I too fought as an MA but with gun stat's recently, and with great success. Against guns specifically, it is definitely worth dropping some points here and there to place into Perception. In PvP you'll suffer for it versus other MA's, but I think I remember you saying you've used Aikido recently, Reeverb. This is a good all-round choice after sarcrificing some stat's.

You can still do well versus a gunman as an MA, but the fact does remain, however that a top gunman should always beat a top MA using the traditionally allocated stat's, though it's certainly not as set in stone as is infered. The 'lines' blur when you take into account skill, experience, knowledge etc, so it's down to the individual to put themselves in the best position possible.

#36300231878 05/07/2007 08:53:25 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

noctivagus wrote:

Fatmop wrote:
noctivagus wrote:
A seasoned gunman should beat a seasoned MA, as per traditionally stat's. As Bay says however, this isn't always the case. There are many variables to consider, and if in your experience you've seen that an MA can't beat a gunman, then you haven't seen enough.
I can't deny that a Duelist has a plethora of defense versus an MA, but it's in no way an impossible task for the hapless martial artist.
I would like to take this time to point out that since I've come back and sacrificed my melee accuracy for ballistic defense stats, I have trashed many gunners in PvP and my win rate in duels is over 50% against them.

It's amazing what the extra ballistic defense can do. I too fought as an MA but with gun stat's recently, and with great success. Against guns specifically, it is definitely worth dropping some points here and there to place into Perception. In PvP you'll suffer for it versus other MA's, but I think I remember you saying you've used Aikido recently, Reeverb. This is a good all-round choice after sarcrificing some stat's.
You can still do well versus a gunman as an MA, but the fact does remain, however that a top gunman should always beat a top MA using the traditionally allocated stat's, though it's certainly not as set in stone as is infered. The 'lines' blur when you take into account skill, experience, knowledge etc, so it's down to the individual to put themselves in the best position possible.

He's Kellner/Fatmop, I am Reeverb. SMILEY

My bad, I should have changed my sig 'cause it's out of date. SMILEY

Dunno if I posted the time I loaded Aikido, could be that's Kellner as wel. I tried it once with gun stats (melee def. thus) and I actually did quite well against another MA. Defense > Accuracy, seriously. I find that with the stats and clothes set for defense I do a lot better. I don't bother too much with my resistances in pvp but I do try to switch clothes to the appropriate class that I'm fighting.
I set my stats the same not too long ago: Sacrificed viral defense for melee defense and loaded hacker. Even though I didn't do much damage, MA's were as easy as a walk in the park.

#36300231881 05/07/2007 08:58:34 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

(My fault, I just glanced at the signature. My apologies)

#36300231903 05/07/2007 09:25:45 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

i think the gap between guns and ma isnt as big as you think, yes it's more difficult for an ma to beat a gunman, however, ma's damage is greater and if you get your opponent blinded with mis punch you can really do some damage

The biggest gap i think is with mkt and guns, hard to outroll an mkt with guns in IL

#36300231957 05/07/2007 10:22 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

Darkhorse wrote:

if you get your opponent blinded with mis punch you can really do some damage

o_O Blinded does -20 ct, not reduce the opponents resistance. I think you mean that you'll be able to hit more easyil, but that came out wrong.

#36300234718 05/11/2007 17:32 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

Bayamo wrote:

In my experiences the lines between the builds aren't truly as large as they seem to be.

In my experiences, most people for for 30/30 in their Influences' associated Attributes. Alot of people don't realize you can balance your attributes for added resistance and defense against the almighty MKT or the dreaded Gunman. And if that clue doesn't help, you can always max out the resistances for those areas you're weak in with gear other than the stuff everybody else is wearing.

"The End is Near, the Time is Now." | W4rbl4de | Reviled Restoration-CYPHERITES

#36300277999 07/10/2007 12:29:30 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

Arcanoloth wrote:

9mmfu wrote:
Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Jeeze, when they told me I'd need math later in life, I didn't think they were talking about finite mathematics and probability theory.
Here is the math that the Fu is talking about.
Linear Programming and the Theory of Games
And when you understand that, you will pwn all.
Nice Shi I broke out into a cold sweat reading that as I got flash backs to calculus in college

I'm in the middle of it, I should pull out my books and calculate the probabilities myself, then report them back to the Devs to FINALLY get the acc of MKT balanced

Without the actual forumla that is used to roll Tohit and Def that would be very difficult to reverse engineer.

#36300280038 07/12/2007 07:15:22 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

9mmfu wrote:

Arcanoloth wrote:
9mmfu wrote:
Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Jeeze, when they told me I'd need math later in life, I didn't think they were talking about finite mathematics and probability theory.
Here is the math that the Fu is talking about.
Linear Programming and the Theory of Games
And when you understand that, you will pwn all.
Nice Shi I broke out into a cold sweat reading that as I got flash backs to calculus in college

I'm in the middle of it, I should pull out my books and calculate the probabilities myself, then report them back to the Devs to FINALLY get the acc of MKT balanced
Without the actual forumla that is used to roll Tohit and Def that would be very difficult to reverse engineer.

What's the Formula?

#36300280057 07/12/2007 07:21:41 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

Arcanoloth wrote:

What's the Formula?

Not a chance SMILEY

#36300280065 07/12/2007 07:25:01 Re:The Lines between the 4 main tree's

9mmfu wrote:

Arcanoloth wrote:

What's the Formula?

Not a chance

Awww, come on. I'll be your best friend.