A few questions about the first movie

#36300170041 02/19/2007 14:36:59 A few questions about the first movie

The Oracle comments about baking noodles and whether or not Neo would have still broken the vase if she hadn't told him. On the same note, would Trinity still have fallen for Neo and given him the Kiss of Rebirth if the Oracle hadn't told her that she'd fall in love with him? Following the Oracle's logic as she says it in Debir Court, Neo already broke the vase, he was only at the Oracle's to understand why.

Understanding the One's purpose to reboot the simulation, why would the Machines have the Agents pursue him to the point of death? If Trinity hadn't kissed Neo, would he still have come back? If he hadn't've come back, would the Agents have just screwed themselves over? Or are the Agents there to filter out the One from other potentials and operatives (similar as to how Seraph had to fight Neo for confirmation)?

Does the Neb Hvcft have gun turrets like the Osiris? If so, why aren't they used to keep the Sentinels off while Neo gets chased/shot/reborn? Instead of just waiting for the last moment to have him jack out and fire the EMP.

Hey RetroX, begin the flaming!

#36300170059 02/19/2007 14:56:39 Re:A few questions about the first movie

This is a legit question; Retro ain't gonna flame you. . .heh, at least I don't think he will. SMILEY

My opinion is that what Morpheus said in the elevator leaving the Le Vrai was less about their current situation and more encompassing. He said, "what happened, happened for a reason, and couldn't have happened any other way."

So, following that logic, Neo still hadn't become the One at the end of the first movie. In fact, I don't think he fully made his choice until he spoke with the Oracle the second time, when he learned (confirmed?) what his purpose was.

Regarding the Neb's armaments, I would have to say yes, they had guns. But there weren't enough people alive to man them at that time.

#36300170065 02/19/2007 15:07:27 Re:A few questions about the first movie

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Regarding the Neb's armaments, I would have to say yes, they had guns. But there weren't enough people alive to man them at that time.

Crew members alive and onboard: Tank, Trin & Morph. Tank was Operating. Trinity was kissing. And Morpheus was... watching?

#36300170317 02/20/2007 00:55:53 Re:A few questions about the first movie

"...whether or not Neo would have still broken the vase..."

That's impossible to answer. The answer any individual comes to will be based solely on personal perspective, belief, religious programming, whatever. Do you believe in choice? Do you believe in fate?

"...would Trinity still have fallen for Neo..."

Only infants can be told who to love. Let's say Trinity hated a particular One candidate and he started to manifest above normal abilities. We all know right from the beginning Morpheus believed 100% in the candidate. So it's the same situation as with Neo, but she hates the candidate. Would she follow the Oracles orders, despite her feelings, and assuming the Oracle doesn't feed us poison?

"...why would the Machines have the Agents pursue him to the point of death?"

Because they had to fool us all. Remember that the Machines lied to everyone about the function of the One. They claimed the One was a messiah. They said he'd save everyone, blah blah. It was all a lie to keep Humanity from actively resisting Machine dominance. If the Machines didn't try to kill Neo everyone would have known right off something was wrong. We would have abandoned him because it'd become obvious he was a tool to further Machine dominance.

If even one shred of evidence had appeared before Neo himself found out the truth, than he would be a nobody. As it is only the fanatical believer, Morpheus, and the blinded by love, Trinity, truly stuck by his side. Who do we pray thanks to that they were enough?

"If Trinity hadn't kissed Neo..."

You've got me there. I lean toward no, but it's hard to explain how Neo could have been aware of anything going on inside the ship for such an event to be relevant. It does "feel" like it was meant to be viewed as the cause of his rebirth...

"...would the Agents have just screwed themselves..."

I don't think so. We know they were aware Neo was anomalous. They could probably literally see that fact. They wouldn't need to know the true function of the One to perform their function, which was seek and destroy. Agents are just Sentinels with a Human RSI. Broadly charged with destruction of Redpill and Exile activity within the Matrix. As long as there is a 1% rejection rate and Programs choose to run from the problems within their society Agents will be around.

"...are the Agents there to filter out the One..."

Agents are there for general suppression, this makes them the "front line" in the virtual side of the war. As a side effect they are the first openly hostile Programs working for The System to encounter the One.

"Does the Neb Hvcft have gun turrets..."

Yes.

"...so, why aren't they used..."

Because everyone still alive was busy. It was a sneak attack. Waiting for Neo to get out and firing the EMP would kill all the Sentinels at once, save a lot of ammo, and allow Neo to live.

"Crew members alive and onboard: Tank, Trin & Morph. Tank was Operating. Trinity was kissing. And Morpheus was... watching?"

Morpheus was at that time not just watching. He was standing with his hand on the EMP trigger.
Trinity was the one just standing there(until Neo died) with nothing to do..

At any rate they didn't have any gunners left, because Cypher killed the two gunners. Remember?

"Not like this...not like this..."

I just answered all your questions. Woo. SMILEY

#36300177374 03/01/2007 10:06:23 Re:A few questions about the first movie

trinity had already fallen in love with neo and kissed him, she was just there to understand why. SMILEY

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#36300177384 03/01/2007 10:12:34 Re:A few questions about the first movie

Technically there were two ways for the One to return to the source...Like Neo did (or i should say would have) by visitng the Architect..or dying in the simulation, which some of the other incarnations did...So that point wouldn't have made a difference either way. I believe he had to become aware of this though, and or make himself known as the One, assuming the mechs didn't know where he'd pop up..Which is probably why he just wasn't killed at birth..

#36300178457 03/02/2007 14:46:10 Re:A few questions about the first movie

Also, it's key to point out that even after Neo tells him that The One was just another form of control, Morpheus firmly says "I don't believe that." -- No matter what, he believes, even if he's told it's all just a lie.

#36300178483 03/02/2007 15:52:52 Re:A few questions about the first movie

And, in the end, Morpheus was right. Neo 'returned' to the Source, offered his code up for reinsertion, and the Matrix was rebooted.

Prophecy fulfilled.

#36300178688 03/02/2007 22:17:31 Re:A few questions about the first movie

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And, in the end, Morpheus was right. Neo 'returned' to the Source, offered his code up for reinsertion, and the Matrix was rebooted.
Prophecy fulfilled.

That wasn't the prophecy though, that was The One's true function. Morpheus just didn't believe that what he was told and lived his life by and believed in this whole time was false. Like if you tell any religious person who's never taken a moment to question their own beliefs and their validity, and they don't believe you.

#36300178980 03/03/2007 11:10:46 Re:A few questions about the first movie

"trinity had already fallen in love..."

Yes, that is partly true. Trinity didn't decide ahead of time to love Neo specifically, but she must have believed and trusted the Oracle enough to prepare herself emotionally for it to happen.

"And, in the end, Morpheus was right."

That's just not even close to true. The prophecy was that the One would lead the army of Zion to victory through control of the Matrix, and by association the Machines. It wasn't about peace, it wasn't about working together in a truce situation. The One was supposed to be the ultimate weapon for Humanity to commit genocide. Neo never attacked first. Neo didn't have the stomach to destroy the Machine race, because his eyes were open and he saw that doing so would be the very last move Humanity would be able to play. If he really believed what Morpheus did, if he really believed the prophecy, Neo would have been slaughtering a lot of Humans and Machines.

I'm not sure if you noticed but the Matrix is still going fine. The Machine race is still perfectly intact in their dominant roll. That's why Morpheus never gave up even after Neo was gone. If he thought his job was finished he would have used diplomacy to find out what happened to Neo. He would have stopped trying to free Humanity. Neo's truce gave us a chance for only one thing, that's cooperation. Every other choice doesn't need a truce situation to play out.

#36300179090 03/03/2007 13:48:03 Re:A few questions about the first movie

minuend wrote:

"And, in the end, Morpheus was right."
That's just not even close to true. The prophecy was that the One would lead the army of Zion to victory through control of the Matrix, and by association the Machines. It wasn't about peace, it wasn't about working together in a truce situation. The One was supposed to be the ultimate weapon for Humanity to commit genocide. Neo never attacked first.

How the hell did you come up with that conclusion? Not one member of the cast ever utters a single word of the Prophecy during any of the movies. At best, they only allude to the meaning of the prophecy. Even the Oracle never says what the Prophecy says. Hell, we don't even know what it was really called! Was it the Prophecy of The One? The Prophecy of the End of the War?

Based on what was given by the characters in the movies, the prophecy was given by the Machines to the first Zionites that were hand selected by the previous One. They create a civilization (Zion) based on the One's teachings and the Prophecy. The One is the mechanism by which the prophecy was to be fulfilled.

Therefore, when Neo tells Morpheus about the true nature of the Prophecy, that it is indeed designed as another form of control, Morpheus denies this and says that he doesn't believe it.

That's what I was commenting on, when I said Morpheus was right. He was right not to believe that the Prophecy was false. Because Neo ended up fulfilling the prophecy anyway! Just not the way the Machines wanted him to.

#36300179113 03/03/2007 15:09:09 Re:A few questions about the first movie

Morpheus outright said the prophecy in M1:

"When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside that had the ability to change what he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, and taught us the truth: As long as the Matrix exists, the human race will never be free. After he died, The Oracle prophecized his return, and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix, end the war, and bring freedom to our people. That is why some of us have spent our entire lives looking for him. I did what I did because, I believe that search is over."

So Shin, let's review. Did Neo:

1.) Destroy the Matrix? No

2.) End the war? Yes

3.) Bring freedom to the human race? No.

1/3. Judges call: Prophecy was NOT fulfilled. Neo bypassed the entire setup the Machines made when he established the truce.

Also, the prophecy was given to Zion's redpills by The Oracle at some specific point during the war, not right away, or by the Machines themselves. This is evidenced by the fact that Morpheus was unplugged as a child (refer to the comics) and was fighting as a redpill before he'd known of The One.

As Trinity explains, after Niobe left him, he went to go see The Oracle for guidance and then everything changed. Why? Because his priorities changed: Morpheus was told the prophecy, and that he would be the man to find The One.

So therefore, after The One unplugs that first group of people to rebuild Zion, he tells them, knowing the sad truth behind it all, that as long as the Matrix exists, the human race will never be free. This puts the fighting spirit into them. He dies, and then as those redpills begin to both repopulate Zion and free more people from the Matrix, they discover and make contact with an entity inside the Matrix known as The Oracle. She's a guide for the resistance, and one day she informs them of the Prophecy. This is what gives the redpills the motive to complete the cycle necessary to reload the Matrix.

Get it now?

#36300179163 03/03/2007 18:03:35 Re:A few questions about the first movie

TheArk wrote:

Morpheus outright said the prophecy in M1:
"When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside that had the ability to change what he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, and taught us the truth: As long as the Matrix exists, the human race will never be free. After he died, The Oracle prophecized his return, and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix, end the war, and bring freedom to our people. That is why some of us have spent our entire lives looking for him. I did what I did because, I believe that search is over."
This is Morpheus recollection of the Prophecy, full of his own personal bias and interpretation. It is by no means a reproduction of the words of the Oracle.
So Shin, let's review. Did Neo:
1.) Destroy the Matrix? No
Actually, yes, as they knew it. The cycle of the Matrix ended and became something else.
2.) End the war? Yes
Agreed, and I never said otherwise.
3.) Bring freedom to the human race? No.
Again, I agree. The prophecy may or may not have really said anything about Neo freeing the human race. Again, you are basing it on Morpheus' interpretation of the prophecy.
1/3. Judges call: Prophecy was NOT fulfilled. Neo bypassed the entire setup the Machines made when he established the truce.
I guess this is subjective. I say he fulfilled it; you say he didn't. My argument is that he ended the war and destroyed the Matrix cycle. And he did return to the Source and allow his code to be disseminated, as the Machines required. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Also, the prophecy was given to Zion's redpills by The Oracle at some specific point during the war, not right away, or by the Machines themselves. This is evidenced by the fact that Morpheus was unplugged as a child (refer to the comics) and was fighting as a redpill before he'd known of The One. .
As Trinity explains, after Niobe left him, he went to go see The Oracle for guidance and then everything changed. Why? Because his priorities changed: Morpheus was told the prophecy, and that he would be the man to find The One.
Knowing as much as you do about the Matrix, you must agree the Oracle's messages are never clearcut and obvious. Very often, her messages are left to our own interpretations so that she will not interfere with choice.
So therefore, after The One unplugs that first group of people to rebuild Zion, he tells them, knowing the sad truth behind it all, that as long as the Matrix exists, the human race will never be free. This puts the fighting spirit into them. He dies, and then as those redpills begin to both repopulate Zion and free more people from the Matrix, they discover and make contact with an entity inside the Matrix known as The Oracle. She's a guide for the resistance, and one day she informs them of the Prophecy. This is what gives the redpills the motive to complete the cycle necessary to reload the Matrix.
I couldn't have described the scenario better myself.
Get it now?

A word to the wise; in a debate, don't attempt to belittle your opponent. It merely cheapens your argument. For the record, I'm not arguing from an EPN point of view, just as an overall fan. SMILEY

#36300179168 03/03/2007 18:15:19 Re:A few questions about the first movie

"A word to the wise; in a debate, don't attempt to belittle your opponent. It merely cheapens your argument. For the record, I'm not arguing from an EPN point of view, just as an overall fan. SMILEY "

Um, okay hypocrite? So much for not belitting your opponent in this "debate." I'm in EPN too, so there's no bias here. Nor is there playing semantics here either: Neo DID NOT destroy the Matrix, it still exists. That's it, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what context it exists under now: It still exists, and humans are still used to power it without choice, thus they are NOT free, as you have so debated in the EPN Manifesto thread. It's what EPN fights to see: Freedom of all bluepills, and thus by consequence the destruction of the Matrix. But that's not the point.

The point is, that the Oracle's prophecy, which stated that The One would destroy the Matrix, and free all humans by process of doing, was not fulfilled. That's the same prophecy that was given to every instance of the redpill resistance in all six versions of it. Neo, nor any One for that matter, ever fulfilled that prophecy. No twisting of words here: What you speak of is something else entirely.

The prophecy remains to be fulfilled.

#36300179181 03/03/2007 18:57:03 Re:A few questions about the first movie

Nevermind. SMILEY

EDIT: to drop it.

#36300179252 03/03/2007 21:46:40 Re:A few questions about the first movie

Alright you ruined any use of the "Being the better man" card by stating your edit was to drop it @_@ And I know it killed to delete that whole post just to change it to what's there, too.

Anyway, yeah, as I was saying: Morpheus refused to believe that the prophecy was a form of control, so it's a good explanation behind his actions in MxO: He still wants the prophecy fulfilled. EPN might honor Neo, but it seems as though we do so by carrying out Morpheus' actions.