Do we really want Neo alive? - MXO Forum Archive

#36300113777 12/06/2006 23:00:06 Do we really want Neo alive?

While reading the Live Events board, especially concerning the Nabonidus (no spoilers here), I was confronted with a question that has been haunting me.

Do we really want Neo alive?

Let me break this down:

Neo was a hero because he fought against the Machines, but more importantly, against Smith. He was a hero because there was something out there that he and he alone was capable of defeating.

lets look at what's happened since then, we have taken on the LED Agents, The Assassin, The Sleepwalkers, Unlimit and God knows what else, without him. We were able to contain them (some more than others) without Neo. Neo wasn't needed, his (and I hate how machine this sounds nowadays) purpose has been fulfilled.

So here is the question I want to ask:

If Neo returns, it has to be because he is needed, because there is something out there that requires him to be there. We barely survived the fights above, some of them by the skim of our teeth. If Neo returns, will we be able to survive what comes with him?

#36300113799 12/07/2006 00:10:03 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

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If there is a new "one" or Neo comes back, then there has to be balance,
and is that balance worth paying for, worth dying for. Will you have the
same faith in him as you did in the past? Would Neo even been the same now
that Trin is dead and Morp is dead. Neo doesn't know me, you and any of
the other RSI's. Would he trust us and why would he want to, now that
he's back and all along.

We want him back for all the wrong reasons. If he's at rest, then let
him sleep and just remember the good he did and what he stood for.

#36300113978 12/07/2006 06:52:24 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Neo's Return = Bad.

Would cause the extremest groups to proclaim that they were right and might even entise a few to "Punish the unbelievers" for doubting that he wouldnt come back. Groups that follow Morpheus would beg him to go after the merovingain in an act of revenge and would either down play Morpheus going around killing thousands in the matrix or not even mention it.

Each group in Zion would try to use him as their living icon. The council would try to use him to consolidate their power, Lock might try to use him as a poster boy for the military, TheKid would use him to justify everything they have done up to this point.

The Machines would try to control Zion threw Neo and the truce which would cause problems on both sides. Zion expecting Neo to be for them the machines expecting Neo to uphold the truce to the letter.

In the end, Icons and Heros only are useful in times of need, IE during the war when the objective is survival, not living. To survive, you only need food, shelter, people and something to unite the masses. To live, you need something more, you need to compete, to have a driving force to better yourself and those closest to you. While this in itself is not bad you get groups who will push their objectives and try to use the icons during the time of need to justify themselves.

#36300114210 12/07/2006 11:39:43 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Also if neo came back people would want to RP with him in an event. This would cause some people who can't attend to be very annoyed and jealous and people might ask him to show off his special powers like flying, which might not be possible in-game.

I think it would be better if there was a new 'One' to help in a desperate situation that might arise. There should be more clues to things like these in criticals. Whatever happened to Sarah Edmontons? Alot of people thought she was the next 'One'.

#36300114256 12/07/2006 12:24:17 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

I dont rly know if this is relevant but my friend recently hacked a side comp in a mission and the jargon it emiited was mostly random numbers and letters but started with the heading TA(numbers cant remember l)SE(numbers cant remember). Thomas Anderson and Sarah Edmontons!

#36300116562 12/10/2006 10:39:33 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

If Neo returns, he won't have the power of the One, why is it that people still don't get this?

The Architect stated that The One is a function of the remainder of the equation at the heart of the Matrix's programming.
The One merges with the Source, the code he carries is reinserted into the prime program, and the Matrix is rebooted.
The carrier of the One code is no longer the One, as even if he still has the aforementioned code, it no longer is relevant to the newest iteration of the Matrix.

I imagine that, should Neo still be alive, he would be a force to be reckoned with, because you can't erase knowledge from a mind, but I doubt he could fly and certainly wouldn't be able to manipulate the Matrix.

#36300116566 12/10/2006 10:44:44 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Coer wrote:

I imagine that, should Neo still be alive, he would be a force to be reckoned with, because you can't erase knowledge from a mind, but I doubt he could fly and certainly wouldn't be able to manipulate the Matrix.

Thats not true. There are examples of memory erasement in the comics. Bane was completely erased and replaced by Smith as well.

#36300117004 12/11/2006 02:15:19 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Coer wrote:

If Neo returns, he won't have the power of the One, why is it that people still don't get this?

The Architect stated that The One is a function of the remainder of the equation at the heart of the Matrix's programming.
The One merges with the Source, the code he carries is reinserted into the prime program, and the Matrix is rebooted.
The carrier of the One code is no longer the One, as even if he still has the aforementioned code, it no longer is relevant to the newest iteration of the Matrix.

I imagine that, should Neo still be alive, he would be a force to be reckoned with, because you can't erase knowledge from a mind, but I doubt he could fly and certainly wouldn't be able to manipulate the Matrix.

Hmmm whats that quote im looking for when Morph and Neo went at it in kung-fu match..... Something about some rules are ment to be broken? Now lets go a bit out of the topic and say what if Neo does come back.. And what if he is not "The One" But he still has the driving power and force to defy the system and bend it at will....... Something tells me that Neo will come back and do a bit of hijacking of his own.. in terms of.. bending and breaking the matrix...
Hope i just didnt give any dev's and idea.... *Email comes in and says "Thank you for that brilliant yet plotfull idea"* O Crap.....

#36300118554 12/12/2006 17:25:49 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Coer wrote:

If Neo returns, he won't have the power of the One, why is it that people still don't get this?

The Architect stated that The One is a function of the remainder of the equation at the heart of the Matrix's programming.
The One merges with the Source, the code he carries is reinserted into the prime program, and the Matrix is rebooted.
The carrier of the One code is no longer the One, as even if he still has the aforementioned code, it no longer is relevant to the newest iteration of the Matrix.

I imagine that, should Neo still be alive, he would be a force to be reckoned with, because you can't erase knowledge from a mind, but I doubt he could fly and certainly wouldn't be able to manipulate the Matrix.

Ah, but the code is still in him, strike that, he IS the code.

When the Architect refers to the Anomaly that makes him the One, He refers to him as "You".

Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision

The architect is a very specific program and would have stated that it was a seperate part of Neo. This suggests that Neo is the Anomaly made manifest and not that he is a human with the code inside him. This means, if Neo is still alive functioning, he would still be considered the One.

And on the topic of relevancy, there is a whole community of people living in the matrix who no longer are relevant to this iteration, we call them exiles.

#36300118705 12/12/2006 21:57:41 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

The system wasn't properly reset. So it is possible, although not plausible, that he never returned that code to the Source. The cycle isn't in effect any longer, so that anomoly shouldn't continue to form in cyclical fashion. There's no way to know if he would have all of his abilities or not unless he actually does return.

I'd also float the possibility that if he does return, it won't be as human, but rather as an entirely digital being. Remember, he seperated his consciousness from his body once before... and his body died. So if he does come back, I expect he'll exsit soley in the system.

Honestly, I hope he does return. The organizations would all undoubtably claim their intentions to be those of The One, aside from the Cypherites of course, and try to convince Neo to join them. But I don't think he would. Being a machinist, I'd like to think he'd exclaim that we got it right... we read his intentions properly and that the rest of you have all been working against his legacy. But that would be far to simplistic. I know there's a lot more going on with the machines than we know, and that Neo wouldn't set up shop in 01 and fly a machinst flag. My guess is that he would take up a position much like The Oracle. He'd be a guide for us all and his goal would be a future where all forms of life work together without any subterfuge, without any splinter groups, without any conflict. Most of us have similar goals, we just differ on how to achieve them. And that's not a random coincidence. It's because we all derive our beliefs from Neo's actions, his choices, his sacrifice.

I would very much like to see Neo return. We very much need his guidance.

#36300119119 12/13/2006 12:25:07 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Neo back, pfft he never left.

Neo lives and will save us all.

FTW

#36300121470 12/15/2006 19:29:57 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Or maybe he lives on but in a different way... maybe there is Neo in all of us. Just that some don't recognise that part. Similarly there is an Agent Smith part in us as well. Good and evil and so on. Bringing it to real-life, Neo represented a Buddha/Christ/etc.; a hero figure who underwent a Campbellian journey of death and rebirth with all the challenges along the way. His final realisation that "I and the enemy are one" enabled him to transcend all notion of good and evil, transcending the realm of gods and the like and in the process providing a guiding light and future hope for everything that exists. Do we need him then? I believe no, we don't need him back but we do need to look at what he has done and understand why he is a hero.

Well that's just my opinion anyway (very Joseph Campbell influenced)

#36300145860 01/20/2007 09:18:52 Do we really want Neo alive?

Shadow Griever wrote:

While reading the Live Events board, especially concerning the Nabonidus (no spoilers here), I was confronted with a question that has been haunting me.
Do we really want Neo alive?
Let me break this down:

Neo was a hero because he fought against the Machines, but more importantly, against Smith. He was a hero because there was something out there that he and he alone was capable of defeating.
lets look at what's happened since then, we have taken on the LED Agents, The Assassin, The Sleepwalkers, Unlimit and God knows what else, without him. We were able to contain them (some more than others) without Neo. Neo wasn't needed, his (and I hate how machine this sounds nowadays) purpose has been fulfilled.
So here is the question I want to ask:
If Neo returns, it has to be because he is needed, because there is something out there that requires him to be there. We barely survived the fights above, some of them by the skim of our teeth. If Neo returns, will we be able to survive what comes with him?

Neo never left. His spirit lives. How much of his spirit that you may see depends on how aware you are. The question is: Now that Neo's spirit is among us what will you do with it?

#36300145875 01/20/2007 09:47:58 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Aeolus wrote:

Or maybe he lives on but in a different way... maybe there is Neo in all of us. Just that some don't recognise that part. Similarly there is an Agent Smith part in us as well. Good and evil and so on. Bringing it to real-life, Neo represented a Buddha/Christ/etc.; a hero figure who underwent a Campbellian journey of death and rebirth with all the challenges along the way. His final realisation that "I and the enemy are one" enabled him to transcend all notion of good and evil, transcending the realm of gods and the like and in the process providing a guiding light and future hope for everything that exists. Do we need him then? I believe no, we don't need him back but we do need to look at what he has done and understand why he is a hero.

This brings to mind something that I probably should have included in the 'favorite quotes' thread...

"It is no longer enough to believe in the journey of another, or to listen to the interpretation of that journey by hierarchs and psychopomps. Their stories cannot substitute for our own quest. Instead, they must inspire it. Following another is not enough -- it is insufficient." -- Phyllis Curott

Illyria

#36300156716 02/02/2007 21:40:29 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Lucen wrote:

The system wasn't properly reset. So it is possible, although not plausible, that he never returned that code to the Source. The cycle isn't in effect any longer, so that anomoly shouldn't continue to form in cyclical fashion. There's no way to know if he would have all of his abilities or not unless he actually does return.

Agreed. It is widely accepted that the Matrix we play in, v3.6 (Third system, sixth version
of that system) is the one that the movies took place in.

Quick history lesson:

Matrix v1: Heavenly Matrix. Seraphim born, etc.

Matrix v2: Nightmare. Gave birth to the Twins, Lupines, Merovingian, etc.

Matrix v3: The Oracles version. Free choice. The one cycle starts.

Matrix v3.1 - 3.6 Cycle of the one.

So Neo's RSI, and his one coding is still his. Just......scattered. After exerting all his power on smith.

#36300156724 02/02/2007 22:02:49 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Actually, many call the version we play in "Ver 4.0" because the cycle of the anomaly is over, and those that choose to be free may do so.

But that's an entirely different debate

#36300156770 02/03/2007 01:38:35 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

I think you're looking at this the other way around. Neo came about because something bad was happening, not the other way around. If he comes back he won't bring destruction, he'll be here because destruction has already come.

Neo came after the Matrix was created, the Matrix didn't come after. Catch my drift?

He does what he does because he has something to do it against. (It's late and I can't seem to get this point across.)

For example, when the machines were destroying Zion, he came and saved the day because there was a purpose for him to save the day. He stopped the war because we were about to be destroyed by something that already existed.

So, when/if he comes back, it will be against something that already exists so that he will have a purpose. He won't bring trouble, trouble will already be here.

#36300157385 02/03/2007 22:14:36 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

It's not a matter of thinking backwards, it's interchangable really. Your point does work, but I also believe that if Neo comes back, that means by default that means something of equal magnitude will manifest itself. It just a matter of who shows up first. The point of my original post is, do we really want him back if we know something else is going to have to come to balance out the equation?

#36300157459 02/04/2007 03:02:07 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Point 1. Neo's power is not *just* the code that made up his RSI. It was about HIM. His body, his mind, his soul. He is a genetic mutation of humanity that is able to manipulate with greater ease the universe of the Matrix. That is why he is the One. This mutation is most likely the simple awakening of dormant portions of the brain after being released from the Matrix Proper.

Point 2. Proof of Neo's ability being personal, not code. HE GOD-MODE'D MACHINES IN THE REAL. End of story.

Point 3. If Neo were to return, you'd better believe he'd be ashamed of how we have degenerated from his sacrifice till now. Infighting, bickering, factionalization, intolerance, violence. We as a whole don't deserve what he gave us.

EPN - Give it up, go worship his RSI in that club, and hope he comes back to show you the way.
Morpheus - Go home, your time is over. We don't need you anymore. You did what you were supposed to.
Cypherites - You want to jack back in? Cool. Get on with it. Quit trying to *spread your word* when spreading the word is not what you really want. Down the blue pill, go back to sleep, and forget about us.
Mervs - Ignorant power mongering idiots. You weren't freed so that you could go play with exiled programs, you were freed to help rebuild humanity. You choose to ignore this? I hope you die.
Machinists - Some of you have it right. Keep the system stable because that's what's expected of you. Play with your world and the new things you can do in it. Help keep the destructive nature of humanity from breaking the machines world. Some of you though... You are not the machine. You do not make the rules, nor are you truly the enforcer of them. Go rebuild humanity like you're supposed to, and quit acting like a 30-year beat cop.

There's not one group out there that has it right. And Neo would say to you all... "This is what I fought for?"

#36300157506 02/04/2007 04:56:25 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Faraque wrote:

Point 2. Proof of Neo's ability being personal, not code. HE GOD-MODE'D MACHINES IN THE REAL. End of story.

Might aswell be his technological aspect transmitting stuff to the source that controls the Machines and the other way round.

#36300157551 02/04/2007 06:23:59 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

Lets tune into realistic FM here, Neo can't come back. It would kill MxO stone dead.

Think about it, if we have Rarebit flying around as the fully powered Neo we knew from the films, where is the fun in MxO anymore? Neo spotting? "He's over there! Quick if we HJ fast enough we can catch him!". It would be the live event equivalent of Catch the Pidgeon.

Remember back at EOB? RFZ reported that Neo and Smith had returned, that Smith was sat atop the government building as a lvl 500, and killing whoever was stupid enough to find him, and Neo was flying under bridges and buildings in DT. Now I know about 80% of the Beta population took that as a real claim and went looking for Neo. I know I, and my faction did. We hunted for hours, hearing reports of Smith destroying entire teams of players, I remember seeing sightings all over the city, international, DT, I saw things out of the corner of my eye, which I took to be Neo.

It still yet has not been confirmed if S and N came back for EOB. But does it even matter if they weren't there? The idea that they were around is what made it so exciting. At this point, the best way for Neo and Smith to be re-introduced into MxO, is as an idea. A myth, a legend, an impossible but possible result.

For example the Smith code, dormant in Agent Grey, but you always have that feeling if something dangerous happened to Agent Gray, there could be the possibility of it re-awakening the smith code inside of him. Or the echo of neo, the static half completed code body of Neo, sat in perpetual motion. But the idea that one day it could be completed, and he could return.

The idea of Neo and Smith, will be more effective than the two of them could ever be, as actual tangible MxO characters.

#36300157573 02/04/2007 07:14:28 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

I don't think Neo will come back. If he does it might only be in flash backs, dreams, visions - That sort of thing.
It wouldn't be good for the game if he came back.

#36300159669 02/06/2007 12:45:20 Do we really want Neo alive?

I have to agree with Trax, to a degree that I was going to say the same thing, there and there abouts. Except end of beta, for I wasn't there. I just listened on RFZ.

So now I'll just hum. Hmm-hmm-hm-h-hmmmm.

#36300159679 02/06/2007 13:07:13 Re:Do we really want Neo alive?

The topic of this discussion is not about the ingame return of Neo. I'll concede outright that the logistics of bringing him back ingame would be a detriment unless they can find a way around it.

But the topic of the discussion is seen as an "In Universe" discussion.