Lets talk about spys

18 posts · 2005-10-04 14:55:40 to 2005-12-08 15:35:11

#11800000213 10/04/2005 14:55:40 Lets talk about spys
I whink many of you will remember this thread from the old board.

Walus had startet it and over 300ppl had posted their Ideas, there were
many good ideas. But after the deletion of the old board all the good
ideas are gone SMILEY



So, now I will set a new start for this.

#11800000214 10/05/2005 03:22:38 Re: Lets talk about spys
ok i have some ideas for a new spy tree alltogether ........ the name should be "Ninjitsu". i mean a whole tree, with stuff up to a lvl 50 skill. Some of the skills would be like shuriken (similar to subbduing throw but it does 200 more damage and stuns for 6 sec), a TRUE disguise technique called "Transform" (with this you could momentarily take on the name tags and affiliation of the selected target ........ it would behave like disguise, but instead of specific desguises you would basically be the person you target. best timer for this would be no more than 60 seconds, with a reuse timer of 45 seconds), now im gonna go out on a limb here and say it should be more of a mix of assassin/knife thrower/MA tree ........ you would be capable of having this and going toe to toe with an MA or knife thrower, but like all the soldier side things (except Zen Master but we dont have it yet) the normal things for VD and VT would be the same. Also there should be a SPECIAL skill (im taking this idea from the anime/cartoon "Naruto") it would be called "Shadow Clone" (the devs can change the name to whatever), what this skill will do is create a simulcrum of YOU; it will have your current load and clothing and weapons and mimic your actions, be it shooting a gun, running, dieing, or whatever. For the sake of interlock it will act as 2 people have interlocked you and the sim will still mimic your actions by using the skill you just did, or rolling out, really whatever you do short of hyper jumping (I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH THE IMPORTANCE OF A LONG RE-USE TIMER ON THIS SKILL AND A SHORT USE TIMER!! it should take no less than 10 min to re-use this skill and only last for no more than 30 seconds while active. the sim like all sims disappears after it is defeated. and disappears after the timer is up). something similar to the last thing but instead of having a fighting sim there would be 2 other sims made that look and behave as you do while they are active but once damaged they would disappear like other sims. they would have no skills no abilities and no way of attacking. they would be a simple diversion. lets call it "Multiply" (the devs can work on the timers for this one). and finally the multiinterlock idea, we'll call it "switch places". this skill does what it says. when multi interlocked the person who interlocked you first changes places with you and attacks one of the other people who were interlocked with you, while you roll out to safety (this would have to be a high lvl skill with a high IS cost and a re-use timer of 60 seconds so as no to make it too easy to use).
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#11800000283 10/17/2005 20:13:31 Re: Lets talk about spys
I like that shadow clone idea, sounds fancy :robottongue:


I would like to see some additions to the assassin tree (Mainly make it so the assassin abilitys can attack through barriers)

For the assassin or the shadow is one perhaps where you could climb walls? Similiar to hyperjump but instead of jumping its like climbing an invisible pipe or ladder without the sounds of the hyperjump landing (which has given away my position in a fight many times)


Just what I think

#11800000288 10/20/2005 10:03:13 Re: Lets talk about spys
I'm not sure I'm into the "sim" idea being down the spy try....simply
because I play both the Proxy Coder and Spy/Assassin/Shadow trees
already and I like them separate because they're different play styles.



I heard someone once suggest that they should sorta apply a "Ninja"
style to the spy tree as well...simply because a lot of the current
assassin abilities look more like wrestling moves.



<3 Paige

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#11800000292 10/21/2005 20:26:58 Re: Lets talk about spys
Ninjutsu fight moves would be cool and it would be the right fight
style for the spy tree, but it would be to imbalanced with the assassin
tree.

I mean, you do a heavy sneak attack and then fight with sweeping fight moves :smileysurprised:

Sounds cool, but it is a bit to strong in my opinion.



For me, is the shadow tree complete worthless in pvp.

Im using in pvp only MKT and MasterAssassin, the best way actually from the spy tree for pvp.



Ok, now my idea. The Ninjutsu tree is a individual tree, but as an spy
you have no combat tactics, so it would be hard or impossible to fight
against an MA.

So, let us have some extra combat tactics in the shadow tree and in the ninjutsu tree.

Without the shadow tree it is too hard to fight against an MA becouse
you have not enough of combat tactics, but with the shadow tree you
have enough.

You know what I mean :smileywink:



A Ninja is someone who lives in the shadow and so is the shadow tree the best alliance for a ninjutsu tree :smileyhappy:



But first must the shadow tree revamped, there are too many bugs in it :smileysad:

#11800000296 10/22/2005 15:17:20 Re: Lets talk about spys

Good ideas but I have to say a ninjitsu class still shouldnt be able to go toe to toe with a martial artist.When ninjitsu was just created by the peasants of early Japan they trained themselves to stand up to the magistrates and the shogunate samurai they had no real hand to hand training. They werent meant to get into close quarters with the samurai because they knew they would be easily defeated. They were also outnumbered so they knew themselves that they needed to use the art of surprise to their advantage.IMO all this stuff that you see in other video games about all-powerful ninjas is completeley far-fetched, they were peasants makeing a last stand for Japan that is all.
#11800000297 10/22/2005 16:19:32 Re: Lets talk about spys
From where do you have these Informations? From Karate Kid? SMILEY

First, it is called Ninjutsu.
Second, peasants?
Ninjutsu was teached in private and wasnt accessible for everyone.

translated by google from an ninjutsu dojo site:

At
the feudal Japan the Ninja would fulfill those, which strove for
military and political power, with fear, because they were trained to
operate in the hiding and had a awesome call as spy and assassins.

You had sayed an ninja had no hand to hand fights, here is the training for an ninja:


   1. Seishin-teki kyōyō (spiritual refinement)

   2. Taijutsu (unarmed combat)

   3. Ninja ken (sword fighting)

   4. Bōjutsu (stick and staff fighting)

   5. Shurikenjutsu (throwing blades)

   6. Sōjutsu (spear fighting)

   7. Naginatajutsu (halberd fighting)

   8. Kusarigama (chain and sickle weapon)

   9. Kayakujutsu (fire and explosives)

  10. Hensūjutsu (disguise and impersonation)

  11. Shinobi-iri (stealth and infiltration methods)

  12. Bajutsu (horsemanship)

  13. Sui-ren (training in water)

  14. Bōryaku (military strategy)

  15. Chōhō (espionage)

  16. Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)

  17. Tenmon (meteorology)

  18. Chi-mon (geography)



I have an video from some ninjutsu moves, looks a bit like the assassin moves SMILEY
http://www.ninjutsu-dojo-koeln.de/medien/downloads/neo.zip

And, Im actualy think about to join a course to learn ninjutsu :smileyhappy:
#11800000298 10/23/2005 06:41:14 Re: Lets talk about spys
a ninja or ninjutsu tree is DEFINATLY needed in this game
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#11800000299 10/23/2005 12:23:29 Re: Lets talk about spys
Im sorry about the misunderstanding what i meant to say is that many ninjas arent what they are in modern day games with insane moves and combos. I myself have been learnin Jeet Kune Do, Gung Fu and the Bo Staff. Oh btw i havent seen karate kid lol:smileyvery-happy:
#11800000300 10/23/2005 15:32:12 Re: Lets talk about spys
Thats right, and I dont want to have an move with 500damage stunning effects powerless and something else, althuogh :smileywink:



But, the spy is a Operative class, and the Operative class is the fighting class.

An MA can fight, an Gunman can fight, only the Spy must run away after an sneak attack from his enemy SMILEY

So it would be cool to get some nice, not to heavy, fight moves.

#11800000321 11/01/2005 09:15:40 Re: Lets talk about spys
from bbc's h2g2:

The Roots of Ninjutsu

Probably around 500-700AD, Nonuse was developed in Japan. Translated as 'the art of stealth', Nonuse
was first practised in mystic form as a system of enlightenment and
self-improvement. The roots of this practice are often placed in the
mountains of central Honshu, and attributed to a unique take on a
combination of Shinto religious philosophy with Mikkyo spiritual
practices and the influence of Chinese warriors, philosophers, and
strategists left outcast by the rise of the T'ang Dynasty. Another
reputed influence were the Shugenja, another group dwelling in the
mountains. This was a sect of spiritual survivalists who sought
enlightenment and self improvement by exposing themselves to the
ravages of the elements. Most sources consider the Nonuse of this period to have been a strictly non-violent movement.

The
lives of the Japanese peasantry were probably never all that pleasant,
but over time the imbalance of power between lord and vassal grew, and
the feudal aristocracy became more and more oppressive. Peasant
resistance to such oppression would have of necessity been a furtive
affair, since the common folk lacked the training and equipment of
their enemies. As a part of such resistance, practitioners of Nonuse began to use their spiritual training to more practical ends. For some, in particular the modern schools of reconstructed Ninjutsu, this Robin Hood-type image is the one true perception of the Ninja.

The word Ninja only came into use later, and is based on the root nin,
which is translated variously as 'perseverance', 'stealth', or
'patience', depending on context; and the Japanese kanji (ideographic
character) is also transliterated 'shinobi'. Ninjutsu was the
collective term for the Ninja fighting arts, the equivalent of the
Samurai Kenjutsu or sword arts, while Ninpo is a term used for their philosophy.


The Rise of the Ninja

It
was with the rise of the military class in the Heian period (794-1185)
that the true Ninja first began to appear. Following the Taika reforms
in the preceding Nara period (710-794) a radical restructuring of
Japanese government and administration, which included the purchase and
redistribution of all land by the state - high taxation forced many
farmers to sell their land and become tenants to wealthier landowners.
These landowners then began to hire Samurai1 to protect their property, enforce their rule, and increase their power, while the lot of the peasantry grew ever worse.

This
is the time of the Ninja, as perceived by the modern western mind, in
as much as such a creature ever existed. From their peasant resistance
roots, the Ninja at some stage became organised into families. Ninja
lore insists that the members of these families trained in all manner
of martial arts and survival skills from childhood; but, although this
may be an exaggeration, what seems certain is that they became an
effective counterculture to the Samurai families, who ruled the feudal
system, employing their 'art of stealth' along with effective guerilla
tactics to combat the better equipped adversary.

These methods were considered cowardly by the Samurai, as they flew in the face of the Bushido
(warrior code), by which the Samurai lived, fought, and died. This
accusation of cowardice, however, is one levelled against almost every
guerilla fighting force ever created, including American skirmishers in
the War of Independence2.
For the Ninja, as for all these others, such accusations were as water
off a duck's back when the alternative was having to confront a
superior enemy face to face. Even if the Ninja did train from
childhood, so too did the Samurai, whose place in society was not only
predestined by birth, but supported by the entire feudal system. The
Samurai of the Heian period were, if not so mighty as reported in later
legend, certainly the finest warriors Japan had to offer. For the
Ninja, a stand-up fight would have meant slaughter.

This is also
the period of history in which the employment of Ninja as spies,
informants, and assassins is first recorded, not merely as a form of
resistance against the ruling elite, but also as their agents in
inter-clan disputes and warfare. Some claim that this is propaganda,
that the official histories go to great lengths to make the Ninja out
to be mercenary killers rather than noble peasant heroes. The
reconstructed school also blames 'renegade' Ninja for bringing the art
into disrepute by selling their skills in this way. It is generally
accepted however, even by Ninja apologists, that the Ninja clans of
this period became involved in power politics; and that they did on
occasion side with one or another of the various Samurai clans.

there u go, peasant origins. lol.
#11800000323 11/01/2005 21:16:23 Re: Lets talk about spys
After the Other Side of the looking Glass, we know a bit more about the revamp of the spy tree. But what is that?



Along with
Combat Revision 2.0 will be an overhaul of the Stealth system. The design
calls for giving players Abilities to detect hidden players using a contested
“roll”. Your Detection Abilities will go up against your target’s Stealth
Abilities repeatedly over time—the longer someone stays within range of your
Detection Ability, the better chance you have of popping their Stealth.



It is hard enough to found some ppl without an ec shild to do a sneak attack.

And what is with the real revamp? They had sayed they want to revamp
it, but a chance to see sneaked player aerlier isnt a revamp, this is
only a step backward for the spy :/



I mean, I had send a petition for the desperate speed bug, but nothing
happend, and I had send this petition some monthes ago to the support SMILEY



The shadow tree is completly useless for pvp, and when you load it for
mission, the mission becomes realy boring becouse the only thing you do
is to run to the door, unlock them and get out without any sighting by
an enemy. And when you get into cc it is over :/

Ok, I know, as an Shadow you dont need to fight, but it would be cool if we yould have more funny abilitys.

As an Shadow you can disable the security station, I know some Ideas
from the old forum, like to put on an Agent Disguise and say an Enemy
in the Area "Go out, here is nothing to do for you" Or turn on the fire
sprinkling system to confuse all enemys in the are



I think you have alot more Ideas, and it would be cool if these Ideas
would be implememtet, but the main thing is now to get out the mad bugs
:smileymad:

#11800000390 11/21/2005 07:32:19 Re: Lets talk about spys
It's not "completely" useless in PvP or missioning.  Might be in your mind, but I have quite a lot of fun missioning with teammates with Assassin.  You're not going to be leading the pack, but it's rather satisfying to go in and watch your other Operative teammates chip away at 3-chevy bosses with 200-300 damamge and then you come in with 1500-2200 damage in one hit and finish them off.


Most of the time I'm more or less a support person..I'll hack down the toughest bad guy to a point where it's much easier to finish him off...


I do solo actually quite a lot with Assassin, but it's a tricky thing to do and you really need to know what your limits are and what you can do before jumping into a room full of baddies.


As for PvP, I don't have a lot of experience in this arena, but on the few occasions I have...your friend is going to be any abilities with stun, or ones that slow down the opponents run speed.  If you can stop them from chasing you...you can get far enough away to go invisible (or just disguise if they're stunned), and then deliver another attack.


<3 Paige

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#11800000398 11/22/2005 12:36:28 Re: Lets talk about spys
like omega said ninjistu...able to break sheilds....a stealth move that kills %50 or knocks out(stun 30 sec) 50% and u immedemly run from...that i would use really crazy like lol
#11800000399 11/22/2005 12:40:33 Re: Lets talk about spys

plus they should add a couple real ninistu fioghting moves like the running flip....the attacker puts his legs on the defenders ears and the attacker flips his backside....throwing the enemy the attackes backway taking at least 500 plus stun....stun is cool and with stealth,it makes a good tactic


#11800000400 11/22/2005 12:43:43 Re: Lets talk about spys

1 more thing about ninjas



Ninjutsu is a Japanese form of martial arts, as popular today as it was in ancient feudal Japan. Its students are trained as assassins, saboteurs and spies and have numerous uncommon abilities. Usually ninjas are pictured in black and carrying a whole host of unique weapons in a backpack.



Ninjas are mercenaries of feudal Japan. Weve all seen the ninja movies of today that show the many skills employed by ninjas on what are usually, secretive missions. Masters of stealth, ninjas have even been said to know how to achieve invisibility.

#11800000443 12/07/2005 08:47:55 Re: Lets talk about spys
I don't use the spy tree too much, one reason being that it has so few
combat abilities.  I think that for people who want to be able to
fight as a spy, adding a ninja tree would be a great idea.  
It could be a stub tree like sniper is for rifleman.

#11800000450 12/08/2005 15:35:11 Re: Lets talk about spys

The shadow part of the tree is lacking in combat abilities, but not the assassin part.

But that's by design.  The point of shadow is to avoid confrontation and slip by unnoticed.  Or if you do get caught in interlock...escape.

EDIT: I re-read what I posted and asked myself "Well, then why on earth would you want the shadow tree".  And to be honest, I only use it for some select abilities out of it...but a real good use for it is on the hostile server.  If you need to move through an area without getting ganked...Shadow is your friend.


Assassin has a lot of attacks...but the way the attacks work, really you stop using a lot of the lower ones as you get higher in level.  Like at level 50 I really so no point to using Punt other than for the coolness factor of the animation.  I mean if you get one shot at hitting an enemy before you have to redisguise/invisi...why waste it on 1000 damage when you can drop 1750 damage with bulldog instead.


Some of the lower ones give some status effects, but honestly those are only useful for your teammates.  Assassin attacks don't really require any statuses to execute them.  So, basically you'll probably end up using only Bulldog for major damage, Reverse Bulldog for the stun effect and a little less damage, and maybe Freedom to Joins and Diving Frankenstein as secondary damage abilities when you're waiting for the others to recharge.


Message Edited by Paige6 on 12-08-2005 06:37 PM

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