How did smith evovle into so many copies?

#11200003856 04/13/2006 13:20:38 How did smith evovle into so many copies?

greetings all,

im sgtclunk.

ok we all know that agent smith can copy himself and fight with like a thousand or so copies of himself such as when he fought Neo in Debir court in the second film... well its been buggin me.. how and why exactly does he copy himself inside the system? anyone have any ideas as to how he did it? what power source did he get it from in order to gain copying abiliies ?....

#11200003857 04/13/2006 18:16:28 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

Agents have always had the ability to move from one bluepill into another (just not multiple ones at the same time). I always figured that Smith had some kind of program error that allowed him to force his code into another person without giving up the one he had possession of previously -- next thing you know, he's spreading like a virus. SMILEY

#11200003861 04/14/2006 03:22:54 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

Its all to do with the anomaly the Architect talked about. Smith was given those powers to balance the equation neo unbalanced with his powers.

#11200003867 04/14/2006 09:30:30 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

The Architect never said anything about Neo's powers needing to be balanced out, that was the Oracle (in the last movie, well after Smith had been cloning himself all over the place). In previous iterations of the Matrix, there was no Smith virus -- the One's powers were not balanced by anything, yet it did not cause a problem for the fulfillment of the so-called prophecy. So I don't think that Smith was "given" powers, they were a fluke caused by parts of him being overwritten/copied by Neo.

#11200003941 04/23/2006 04:45:51 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

of course the oracle siad it she told neo what the architects purpose was which was to balance the equation.
which is the opposite to her own purpose which was to unbalance it

#11200004158 05/12/2006 06:52:26 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

in previous iterations of the matrix the balance created by the architect was the manipulation of the one to force some level of control on those in the real world.

#11200004160 05/12/2006 13:48:47 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

fowkes wrote:
in previous iterations of the matrix the balance created by the architect was the manipulation of the one to force some level of control on those in the real world.

The Matrix is a computer program, whereas the real world is not. How could trying to control people in Zion "balance" the Matrix? (Answer: it can't).

Besides, according to the Architect, the One was called to him because Zion was about to be destroyed. Since the other Ones all chose to return to the Source, there was no longer an imbalance and therefore no need to try to "force some level of control" on Zion, especially since they were repeatedly wiped out shortly afterward anyway.

#11200004161 05/12/2006 22:29:16 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

hey Clunky.....

I believe someone hit it on the head earlier when they said that his powers were possible because it was the system's way of balencing itself out. In the preveous instances of the matrix, something simular occured to Smith to balance it out as well. This can be seen during the Burly Brawl when Smith says to himself, "Exactaly as before," (paraphrase) and he replies to himself, "Well, not exactally" (also parahrase).

As to the actual mechanics of how he was able to do it, I don't believe it was explained. Maybe he right clicked himself, selected Copy... then right clicked them and selected Paste. But I doubt it.

I have no idea what you are talking about...

This place is lame

#11200004162 05/13/2006 05:12:45 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

Digitize listen to your logic it is flawed.

Controling Zion 101

lesson 1: free a number of people from the matrix.

lesson 2: Give them a sence of hope/ give them a hero.

lesson 3: turn their hero. make him see your way of thinking

lesson 4: when they reach the point of revolution wipe them out.

lession 5: repeat lessons 1 through 4

this proccess allows the matrix to purge the system of those that no longer believe their lies

Message Edited by fowkes on 05-13-2006 02:15 PM

#11200004168 05/13/2006 19:54:41 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

Sorry Fowkes, but your explanation is what is flawed. First of all, your "lesson 1" seems to imply that it is the machines that are freeing people from the Matrix. Obviously the movies don't support that theory. As for "lesson 2", the people in Zion believed that they had been at war for 100 years, that is a long time to go without having a sense of hope / hero, don't you think? The Prophecy itself wasn't enough to give them hope, seeing as how most people in Zion apparently didn't believe it, even AFTER Morpheus found the One.

The timeframe between your "lesson 3" and "lesson 4" is what, a day? "Turning the hero" to the side of the machines never happened -- the previous Ones returned to the source under duress, not because they "chose" that path, per se. Besides, the One doesn't return to Zion until AFTER it is destroyed, so by then there is no one left for the "turned hero" to manipulate.

Your whole point here is to claim that the Architect was trying to create balance in the Matrix by forcing control on Zion. If you watched the movies you would know that the Architect could not balance the system -- that is the whole reason the systemic anomaly exists in the first place. If controlling/killing a few people in Zion was the answer to balancing out the computer system, the machines would've been raiding Zion on a daily basis. On the other hand, if the Architect found another way to balance the system by giving power to Smith, then there would've been no reason to continue harassing Zion. Since neither option is supported by the movies, both have to be wrong.

If you know anything about math, you will know that equations have to balance, meaning both sides of the equals sign have to match (i.e. "1+2=3" balances because both parts of the equation, '1+2' and '3' are the same). Since computer programs are built on mathematical equations, if there is an imbalance, it causes various problems, such as a crash, BSOD, etc. According to the Architect, the anomaly (i.e. Neo) was a result of an imbalance in the system "which, if left unchecked could threaten the very system itself" aka BSOD, Matrix-style.

What you don't seem to understand is that although the people in Zion may be part of a "system of manipulation" (i.e. the Prophecy), they are NOT a part of the "computer system" itself -- these are two different things. So attempting to "control" the redpills the way the people within the system (bluepills) are controlled will do nothing to balance the equation.

The Prophecy was created to attempt to control/influence the decisions of THE ONE because only The One's code can rebalance the system. The mere act of controlling and/or wiping out Zion does nothing to balance the equations within the Matrix itself. As I said above, Zion could've been wiped out on a daily basis and it probably wouldn't have mattered, aside from there not being anyone to give Neo the redpill.

Message Edited by digitize on 05-13-2006 11:59 PM

#11200004173 05/14/2006 17:10:25 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

omg man on one hand you have repeated what i have already told you yet on the other hand you do not fully understand my logic. sit down watch the films then read what i have said. you will see that it is not my explanation that is flawed it is your perception of it.

lol matrix style pwnage

Message Edited by fowkes on 05-15-2006 02:12 AM

#11200004289 06/04/2006 11:38:59 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

Smith was the negative of Neo. He was the virus of the Matrix, he was like The One but in a negative way. That's why he is so powerful, because some part of Neo's coding inprinted onto him. But at the end of the day, he was a virus running riot. Their is no particular reason how he could copy himself, but the reasons I stated above tell you why he can do it.

#11200004298 06/07/2006 05:13:45 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

Fowkes is correct. The One is given the task of selecting a small number of men and women to survive the purge of Zion. They restart the human colonization of Zion. Having Zion and humans that are intent on awakening those that reject the simulation, gives the humans that reject the Matrix a focal point. They are collected and removed from the Matrix, instead of rejecting the program and having to stay around, causing system instability.

Think of it like Microsoft Windows. Zion is the "recycle bin". The humans (cunningly guided by the machines) that are free, scour and collect humans that reject the Matrix, like a disk cleaning program. When Zion is "full" the machines empty it. This is only true for extreme cases that the machines can not control with agents and the like.

As for the copying of Smith. He said it himself (paraphased) "You died. I killed you. But then something happened, you killed me. I knew I was meant to return to the source, but I couldn't." ... "some part of you copied over to me, something overwritten." This shows that when (a supposedly dead) Neo killed Agent Smith (who's primary purpose was to exterminate redpills) he had a logic glitch (being killed by a killed yet still-alive RSI would produce something like a divide-by-zero error) and it is possible that part of Neo's code corrupted Smith's (maybe when he was torn apart his "one instance only" code broke due to being in multiple fragments) allowing him to replicate before death instead of after. It makes sense that this is the bit of Smith's code that was damaged as he still required a host to overwrite/occupy (becoming the virus he so despised in the first movie) like all agents.

It is recognised that the point at which Neo killed Smith is when Smith went from relatively normal agent (he seemed more emotional than other Agents), to the crazed multiplying machine.

phiAU - The Kings of Never - noblesse oblige

#11200004335 06/11/2006 00:37:12 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

digitize wrote:

Sorry Fowkes, but your explanation is what is flawed. First of all, your "lesson 1" seems to imply that it is the machines that are freeing people from the Matrix. Obviously the movies don't support that theory.

Do you think the Machines didn't KNOW that Zion was freeing redpills? They allowed it to happen, to have a small amount of humans running about, keeping their genetics nice and fresh.

#11200004385 06/14/2006 16:24:49 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

I see a series of actions and reactions that eventually led to the method of control described by the Architect. Here's how I see it going down.

1. Oracle creates her version of the Matrix

2. 1% reject Matrix

3. systemic anomaly the result of the rejection

4. systemic anomaly eventually builds until it becomes the integral anomaly

5. integral anomaly attaches to human

6. integral anomaly needs to be dumped at the Source to cleanse the system

7. Architect seeks to control this human

8. Oracle suggests that human be given a messiah role

9. human is granted power from the Source

10. Oracle creates Path of the One to guide the human to the Source

11. messiah needs followers, so concept of Zion is created

12. Zion exists not as a dumping ground but as means to train the One and create an attachment between him and humanity

13. human reaches Architect and given choice to save humanity or allow them all to die

14. Zion's purpose is over, so it is destroyed

15. the One is instructed to help rebuilding of Zion so that the cycle can begin again

The part I want to emphasize is that Zion is not necessary as a dumping ground. The Architect knows who has unconsciously rejected the Matrix (how else do you think he's able to measure what percentage rejected it), and if his sole desire was to get rid of them, he could just have their physical bodies dumped (their RSI's in the Matrix would drop dead, and would be explained as a freak occurrence).

So Zion has a purpose apart from getting rebels out of the Matrix. Its purpose is wrapped up in the One. The One's purpose is wrapped up in the integral anomaly. And if the Architect can't get rid of the original problem (people rejecting the Matrix), then the next best thing is to get rid of the resulting integral anomaly. So everything about the prophecy, the Path of the One and Zion is just so the Architect can clean out the programming of the Matrix.

#11200004386 06/14/2006 19:52:25 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

No need to debate any further. Digitize nailed it on the head with his second post.

digitize wrote:

The Architect never said anything about Neo's powers needing to be balanced out, that was the Oracle (in the last movie, well after Smith had been cloning himself all over the place). In previous iterations of the Matrix, there was no Smith virus -- the One's powers were not balanced by anything, yet it did not cause a problem for the fulfillment of the so-called prophecy. So I don't think that Smith was "given" powers, they were a fluke caused by parts of him being overwritten/copied by Neo.

Can remember what scene it was, it was either after Neo beat the Agents outside the door and noticed they had upgrades or when Smith copied himself into Bane.

He said something along the lines of...

Just like before.
Looks at the freshly copied Smith.
Well, almost just like last time.

#11200004409 06/15/2006 09:21:47 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

phi wrote:

It is recognised that the point at which Neo killed Smith is when Smith went from relatively normal agent (he seemed more emotional than other Agents), to the crazed multiplying machine.

The thing that always made me curious is Smith's apparent lack of knowledge of the cycles in M1 and his "newfound" knowledge of them in M2. I come to the conclusion that he didn't know about them in M1, because he seems to be under the impression that if he can just get the access codes to Zion, everything will be over with. But since everything repeats, theoretically he would be right back in the Matrix the next day, at it again.

But based on what I know of the Pandora's Boxes, the agents DO know about the cycles. After all, they encountered the soldier agents from the previous version, and I'm sure they knew what they were and where they came from.

So the question then is if Smith knew about the cycles, why would he think he would be free if he could get the access codes to Zion? Are agents only allowed to exist for one cycle and then have to return to the Source to be deleted? Apparently they get upgraded with every iteration, so this might not be far from the truth.

The last question is what exactly happens when an agent returns to the Source. When I re-read Agent Gray's original description from way back in beta, it said that because he was under quarantine to be studied for the Smith virus, he was "not allowed" to return to the Source. That choice of words makes it sound like returning to the Source is actually desirable for agents. Why would ceasing to exist be desirable? Am I missing something?

#11200004417 06/15/2006 20:17:12 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

When a program returns to the source, from what I can discern, it is analysed for useful data/code. That code and data is then re-inserted into the source database and the program is deleted.

If a virus or bad code that does not conform to the rules of the system is reinserted as part of this code the results could be permanantly fatal for most of the machines and pod-inhabitants.

Sometimes if a program returns to the source it is upgraded, but usually they face valuable-asset reclaimation and deletion.

Message Edited by phi on 06.16.2006 02:17 PM

#11200004424 06/16/2006 07:38:34 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

phi wrote:

When a program returns to the source, from what I can discern, it is analysed for useful data/code. That code and data is then re-inserted into the source database and the program is deleted.

If a virus or bad code that does not conform to the rules of the system is reinserted as part of this code the results could be permanantly fatal for most of the machines and pod-inhabitants.

Sometimes if a program returns to the source it is upgraded, but usually they face valuable-asset reclaimation and deletion.

Message Edited by phi on 06.16.200602:17 PM

Interesting. I wonder if agents are different than other sentient programs as far as their relation to the Source goes and how they are treated. I do remember when I re-read the biography of Dame White a couple days ago that it mentioned something about an "existence in the Source"--almost as if a sentient program can live in the Source in the same way that it can live in the Matrix. There was no clarification as to what it meant, but that little blurb is part of the reason that I wanted to look into this.

#11200004425 06/16/2006 08:07:16 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

The agents from the PB's know about the different versions of the Matrix because they were from these previous versions. I don't think the agents we see in the movies knew about them, since Smith seemed to think once they got the codes to Zion it would be destroyed for good. It was only after Smith became a virus that he appeared to know about the cycles ('It's happening just as before.'). And now, because Zion wasn't destroyed and the Matrix wasn't reset, the current agents know about them too.

As for programs returning to the Source -- and Agent Gray wanting to do this -- it may not necessarily mean destruction for all of them. Gray doesn't strike me as having a death wish! Some programs may be 'recycled', by wiping their memories and stripping them down to their original programming. It would be much more efficient to do that with complex, resource-intense programs like agents, rather than starting over from scratch.

Illyria

#11200004433 06/17/2006 15:36:29 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

Illyria22 wrote:

It was only after Smith became a virus that he appeared to know about the cycles ('It's happening just as before.').

Well, you know, he coulda taken over a program that knew.

Illyria22 wrote:

As for programs returning to the Source -- and Agent Gray wanting to do this -- it may not necessarily mean destruction for all of them.

When a program returns to The Source, and discover they're bound for deletion, they have a choice to continue and be "killed", or return to The Matrix or hide in The Real as an Exile.

....

I don't think I contributed anything in this post.

#11200004436 06/18/2006 18:49:32 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

What I always thought he did to copy himself was overwrite the code in the bluepills body. They just figured they were sleeping, not takein over.

Smith used 2 VERY simple key strokes.

CtrlC and CtrlV

#11200004442 06/19/2006 08:28:57 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

:smileyhappy:

TimeMaker wrote:

What I always thought he did to copy himself was overwrite the code in the bluepills body. They just figured they were sleeping, not takein over.

Smith used 2 VERY simple key strokes.

CtrlC and CtrlV

so agents always had the ability to copy themselves just not in so many forms?.. i mean im starting to get the point but why would he need to.. why sacrifice the matrix just to kill one person(s) couldnt you in the matrix kill that person and be done.. why must he Evolve into milions of smithites.. when he can use the other agents as back up? i mean come on ..

#11200004443 06/19/2006 08:29:28 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

or let the sentinels take care of them ... or the machines

#11200004453 06/20/2006 10:44:04 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

Now you're thinking along the lines that Smith was sane during his viral days.

#11200004468 06/22/2006 07:14:11 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

i am.. why is that?:smileymad:

#11200004558 07/06/2006 19:01:20 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

I believe the line you guys are looking for is right after Neo fights the Upgraded Agents. Smith says to the second Smith, "It's
happening exactly as before." Then the other Smith says, "Well, not
EXACTLY." with a huge emphisis on exactly. What i believe has already
been stated, that a similar, THOUGH NOT EXACT event occured, though it
never reached the point as it does in Matrix 3 because the previous
Ones went back to the source, preventing the Smith Virus to ever get
that much power.

~ J

Message Edited by TheRedeemed on 07.06.2006 08:03 PM

#11200004565 07/07/2006 08:57:40 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

OMG guys you need to refresh your memory of the films. You will then come to realize that it was not neo that Imprinted his code onto smith but infect it was the architect who did this, but as the oracle states the architect cannot see past any choice he makes because he does not understand them. Therefore Agent smith who in the first films shows signs of individualism by removing his earpeace as he told morpheus how he felt, clearly stating that he hated the matrix and also showed disgust for humanity. could he have developed these traits from the battles with the other versions of the one, who knows.

But in my opinion Smith already had the powers in question as he was developed to balance the equation of which was created by the one. knowing that the one returned to the source in the previous versions of the matrix then the architect had no reason to modify smith.

But because Neo was different unlike the others, because of his prolonged experience within the matrix the architect had only one option, smith had to no longer be bound to the rules of the system in order to successfully destroy Neo. As smith states in the final film his purpose was to defeat the one, that was why he was created, and when you go back to the second film in the mobile Ave a program speaks to neo about purpose and what happens to programs who no longer have a purpose, taking this into account it was essential that the smith program must have another purpose other than the destruction of the one, and what better purpose than being an agent of the system.

The architect chose to remove the binds placed on smith by the rules of the matrix. with no rules smith could remake the matrix as he saw fit just like the one could, yes thats right morpheus mentions that the one before neo could remake the matrix as he saw fit, if Neo had more experience as an operative of zion perhaps his powers would of reached such a level.

#11200004643 07/15/2006 15:05:58 Re: How did smith evovle into so many copies?

In relation ot smith wanting the access codes in film 1, its because his secondary purpose was to purge the system of zion operatives, if he had the access code the machines could discover a way to block the pirate signal, elimating the purpose of the agents, therefore the agents would be scheduled for deletion.

But when you compare Smith to the other agents he seems to have his own personality as where the others seem to be more of a singular consciousness,