My believe system in the Matrix (OLD thread)

First Question:
How can the Oracle (referred to as Or) predict what happens in our world? How can the powers of the One reach beyond the Matrix itself? (I know these are two questions, they are connected though)

First answer:
There is a theory of physics that says: If you know the position, speed and direction of every particle of the universe, you are able to predict the next position of all particles and this all over again.

This view of the universe is now outdated, but we're talking about a computer program here, so I guess this would be valid for the Matrix.

This is another way to say that fortunetelling is quite possible. It is VERY possible in the Matrix, because it is done by the Or. But how can she predict the future of redpills, entities that are not connected to the calculation of the Matrix? Redpills can leave and enter the Matrix at every given time. This makes a certain prediction impossible, you might think.

Knowing the human psyche, the whole sitatution in the Matrix with all the details and having all eventualities in her mind, she might be able to know where a certain person (or just a person) makes a certain decision. According to her, this decisions is already been made (because apparently it's the only one that really could be made at this point although the person him/herself might nor realise it), and if she knows all circumstances of this decision, she understands this decision can predict it. If she shouldn't know these circumstances she doesn't understand it and therefore can't: "No one can see beyond decision he doesn't understand". That's exactly what it means. 

But how is it possible that the powers of the One, of Neo, reach beyond the Matrix? The same way like the Or can predict the future of the Redpills.

The answer is: We are still not free.

First Explanation:
Yes, we are not free. We think we are, but we aren't. It's easy to explain. The powers of the Or and of Neo are connected. They are the powers of Matrix bound calculations. Their powers are bound to the Matrix, which implies that the "Real World" (referred to as RW) is just another Matrix simulation.
You can think about that as a Sphere of Worlds. The core is the Matrix we all know of as "The Matrix" (referred to as TM). It is sourrounded by the RW.
But how comes that we are not aware of this?
Simple as it is. It is explained in the architect scene of "The Matrix Reloaded". To ensure that the humans accept the program of the Matrix, they need to have a choice, the choice to break free of the virtual life. So we redpills get into the RW and think of it as the reality.

So why do people think the common life in their relatively comfortable normal world of the Matrix isn't real and don't suspect anything in the RW? Is it because the Matrix is programmed to be more spooky than the Real (inspite of all its advantages) and therefore is especially made to appear unreal to a small minority of humans? And then the Real world is made more realistic or more perfect so these people don't suspect anything? Sorry, sounds confusing. imo

Basically, my "theory" is completely different. The Real world is real, but the podborn humans are actually cyborgs. Lots of technical devices planted into their body, and maybe nanobots (like the Borg, in a sense). This could be an unknown way for Neo to maintain a connection to the source or the Machines. BMx because nothing like that was ever really hinted in the movies and sounds far-fetched here, but nanobots etc. are real-life theories about the future of virtual reality and similiar directions, and therefore not so dumb.

Others think it's actually the spiritual level of the Machines that Neo enters. This is a way to much out of genre, but sounds considerable. If you really imagine the podborn as cyborgs Zion's technicians weren't able to register that (Zion isn't the Starfleet after all lol), everything just explains itself without any need for any "Matrix in the Matrix" theories.

Your further points are apparently based on this theory in the first one and therefore I guess I'm not able to anwer those. Looking forward to your reply

Message Edited by GoDGiVeR on 03-24-200602:31 PM

This is something i have not thought of and it is a very good thougt.
But according to the Matrix Triology and of what I heard in there, my assumptions are much more reasonable. First the Architect said that the Mashines have destroyed Zion many times and that they're growing more efficient everytime. Second the trainman even knew when Zion "was going to be destroyed" (either good intel from the Merv, quite possible, or it is because of the calculated length of the Zion/Matrix simulation, which the Merv would also know, because of his experience). Third the Merovingian has encountered many "Ones" before. Morpeus didn't knew there were more of them than the "One" who first began to free bluepills and Neo.

Like you pointed out in the brackets, these facts really don't automatically mean the RW is a simulation. It's quite realistic that both the Machine programs and the Exiles have a significant knowledge about the RW (like the Trainman). Actually like all other humans, Morpheus didn't know about the previous Zions and Ones and therefore accounted Neo's predecessors who had freed the "constitutors" of this Zion as the first one because he thought this resistance was the first one. Maybe that One even had to lie at the humans he had freed, and even if not, the Exiles and the Agents know better than telling the humanity the truth. The Merovingian was there in the Matrix all the time and has access to lots of Machine information, so it's just obvious why he knows about it.

Also, since the Machines control both the Real and the Matrix, they can easily coordinate their actions in both of the worlds, they don't have to be both simulations for that.

Your "Cyborg Theory" is in that way possible that it explains the powers of the "One". But apart from the it's really BMx, sry for that.

Well... it's not that far-fetched at all. I mean look at podborn humans in the movies, they have plugs in their heads and on their whole bodie. The plug in the head undoubtedly leads to some sort of technical device planted in the brain that interpretates the signals and stimulates the according sections of the brain. Apparently it also contains a small computer where all datas about the individual RSI are stored and broadcasted to the Matrix or the construct.

 Those in the body are there to provide the body with nutrients. And I guess they can't win much energy out of a human body just by holding  a thermometer in the pod lol. It's "bioelectric" energy they get so I bet they also do it by planting something in the body.

Without a doubt, they are cyborgs. The question is how much -- are there really nanobots in their blood? Do they really have hidden devices to communicate with the Machines that they couldn't figure out and were deactivated? And did Neo's programming somehow activate those? By all means, they aren't 100% humans.

And yes, this was only to expain the powers of the One. If you were referring to his or the Or's seer abilities, I bet it has more to do with the Or's knowledge about the RW and Neo's (eventual) possibility to accomplish such complex calculations by unconsciously having access to the source. Although on the other side, the brain has such incredible possibilites that maybe he could also do it in his head (in this case, it would be the Machine technology in his brain and not a hit by a baseball " ). Don't know actually, all just jabberwocky

"So why do people think the common life in their relatively comfortable normal world of the Matrix isn't real and don't suspect anything in the RW? Is it because the Matrix is programmed to be more spooky than the Real (inspite of all its advantages) and therefore is especially made to appear unreal to a small minority of humans? And then the Real world is made more realistic or more perfect so these people don't suspect anything? Sorry, sounds confusing. imo"

I thought that that would confuse some of you. But it is also quite reasonable, because of the "known" history of Humanity,which Zion possesses (Which would only possess the history, which the Mashines would want them to if the RW is really just another Matrix.). Because of this known history, people are made to think of this as the Reality. And because of this nobody suspects (of course all Zion born humans don't do, they grew up with this history and the knowledge of the Matrix, which they think isn't real, just a simulation. This gives them the certainty to believe that their world is real) that his is just another simulation.

Good point. The knowledge that they're already above another simulation could cause sureness that they're now in the Real world. On the other hand, the knowledge that living in a realistic world can be (and eventually was) revealed as a simulation at all might cause the exactly opposite -- they could get paranoid and simply refuse to believe anything they see.

Nobodie gives them this thought. This is why the background choice, which is that hey can always choose freedom if they want to, isn't in use anymore. They believe they live in the reality. The choice they think they choose is freedom, but it's just unknown slavery. In the Matrix, many people believe in their unconsciousness that their life is just fake, this choice is lost in the RW.

Again the same thing as above -- they're already been taught that their whole world was fake. That sorta unlocks this unsureness in one's mind.

Also, they've actually been detected by Redpills and not really chosen their "freedom". They've actually always been free in the Matrix, apart from the fact that their bodies lied in pods and agents could control them all the time. Now they are offered a choice, do they want to live in this reality or exceed it? Even if they choose the red pill and actually everyone believes this is really the way out of the simulation, this person still can doubt about the reality of the new world he sees. It doesn't mean he consciously and cubconsciously chose "freedom over slavery" and now can't think of anything else. He just chose to escape from the Matrix and can think what he wants.

Of course there is also History in the Matrix, but they don't live in a desperate world where hope is a rare good and where their're thoughts connot be focused on such things, because it would just demoralize the relatively small numbers of humans in the RW.
Desperate Hope is what this keeps this RW trustworthy.

Right, realism benefits from demerits. After all, the first perfect Matrix of milk and honey wasn't accepted as reality. But as I said, a less comfortable reality can be much likelier be taken as something unreal you try to escape (in a purely psychological sense) and the positive things are taken for granted and therefore for real.

People might not want to escape their comfortable life in the Matrix but might refuse the toughness of the Real. Of course, then they want to go back to the Matrix and not exceed this "simulation" like Cypher, at least this possibility is there. But still.

To also reassure that they don't come behind this fake RW, this system has to be much more perfect, not allowing any Exile programs to show up. This is only possible because laws of nature are less likely to be broken or bent, which isn't neccessary, because the Mashines do have an Army with which they can interfere with the Humans, without bending any rules. Only few restricted programs have access to these laws of nature: E.g. the One, and the Or (so she can make predictions, perhaps a side effect, I need further thoughts about this). And because there is no "outside" influence ("Yellowpills", which could destabalize this simulation. This system is "flawless".
I bet that the mashines could create a more stable Matrix, but because of all the outside influences and the already high numbers of existing Exiles, this is not possible.

Nah, you're argumenting very well

Lol, that's weird, to me it's completely different: My "theory" appears just logical to me while your version about the RRW seems to be a really dared (not in negative sense) hypothesis.

However, I guess I've said all I think about it, so I just wanna bring up another explanation that I've seen somewhere different (it was claimed to be a hidden message in the Wachowskis' website but I couldn't find it):

The humans have already won the war against the Machines a long time ago and now are testing them in an own simulation. The Architect, the Oracle and Smith are actually humans monitoring their systems and Neo, Trinity, and all the others we know as humans are the Machines with manipulated mind. And so on.

Very weird and not mine, but nice to think about it and maybe a wilful addition to of your point of view

However, don't worry I won't hijack this thread anymore, I've said pretty much everything. Let's see what others have to contribute now.

OMG...My head hurts

Some interesting points from both of you God, and Zero...and much to ponder...however...knowing something and being able to manipulate it are two completely different things...good luck with your search God

Stay Safe

Message Edited by GoDGiVeR on 03-25-200607:13 AM

No, I wasn't upset in any way. And I can't recall you ever being rude. The implementation of "my theory" in yours isn't harsh, it just demonstrates something:

If, let's say, we're discussing about the origin of Neo's powers in the Real and we have different explanations: I'm saying it's his Machine technology in his body and whatsoever and you say he bends the rules of the so-called Real because atually it's another layer of the simulation. At first view, they seem to contradict each other. But mine can be implemented in yours. That means "mine" actually works anyway and yours isn't a contradicting explanation but just purely "additional" -- by no means in negative sense though.

In case you talk to certain characters in game, just a hint: Just as every other human you aren't supposed to know about the other One's (or have the Machines decided to tell the humans the truth? just came in my mind but I'd say not) or maybe even not about what Neo exactly did in 01. For example, the first question I'd like to ask Niobe would be why she didn't tell anything about her meeting with the Trainman and the "last time". But where should I know this from?

However, I guess you and me have said everything what we had to say about this, so let's see who else wanna join

I like your point of view godgiver but i have a quetion. Now I'm new to the mxo and you may think that I'm am just an uber geek but with your belief are you talking about the game or the world that we live in? And ayone who thinks I'm being dumb here please tell me because I'm pretty people in this forum will think that I am in fact an idot.  

I like your point of view godgiver but i have a quetion. Now I'm new to the mxo and you may think that I'm am just an uber geek but with your belief are you talking about the game or the world that we live in? And ayone who thinks I'm being dumb here please tell me because I'm pretty people in this forum will think that I am in fact an idot.