Why not use cows?

84 posts · 2005-11-10 17:39:19 to 2006-07-09 15:05:01

#11200002939 11/12/2005 16:23:32 Re: Why not use cows?
If stated before me, I'm just reinforcing these possibilities:



Animals might not have existed post blowing the hell out of the planet.



In order to actually obtain energy from a host body, the matrix program
must stimulate the mind to create body heat, there may be no way to do
this with cows, since their normal lives aren't that physically
stimulating, and overstimulating them may cause the cows to reject the
matrix, like the first humans did.



but all in all, why didn't the machines use cows?



Lactose Intolerance.

#11200002940 11/12/2005 23:42:41 Re: Why not use cows?
Well, I figure they used us because...



We're human. If the Machines were religious wouldn't we be Gods?

In the end we lost the war. Where no prisoners taken? Didn't we surrender?

There were pro-Machine humans, living where? For how long? First crop?

All they know is humanity. They were designed to serve. They've spent the better part of their existence studying us.

I suspect due to the way they think, without us they'd get bored. At least for now.

They need us around to finish evolving into metallic clones of us. At least for now.

I can't honestly see how much plant life survived no sunlight,
nevermind the nuclear issues. Not many animals would survive the path
that leads to. How long until the oxygen runs out without large
forests? I believe most organic life is doomed if the planet is indeed
mostly barren on the surface, which it appears to be.















#11200002941 11/13/2005 00:27:39 Re: Why not use cows?

alot of good points have been brought up. And you could go a thousand different ways with this, but i'll go for the biological side of this.


Ok i think it has to do with the brain activity between humans and cows.


    On one side cows are less intelligent and resourceful because their brain activity and development is way below ours, this is because after thousands of years of evolution the genetic code that has carried on, shows that a cow would be better off using the energy that would normally take a brain to work, in a different area, like their stomachs.


    So Humans have the most brain activity of all the animals on earth. Which means we have the most electrical impulses and signals being relayed. Morpheus mentioned that we produce like as much as 124 volt battery and blah blah BTU's. Other animals such as the cow would very much so have more BTU's than us. However we have more Volts which are more important than BTU's. because volts are pure electricity


So i guess what im trying to say is Humans are more energy efficient than cows. :smileyhappy:


#11200002942 11/13/2005 01:23:08 Re: Why not use cows?
One thing I never understood...why was body heat important to the Machines?  Or at least, why did Morpheus mention the factoid about the BTUs?
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
#11200002943 11/13/2005 02:31:39 Re: Why not use cows?

Heat is a form of energy so the machines could harvest the electrical energy and then harvest the heat energy and convert it to electracal energy.



Death



#11200002944 11/13/2005 08:59:37 Re: Why not use cows?
Well this might have been said before but anyway i'll tell you what i tihink....as the story goes the war was against man and machine.......man tried to get rid of machine by scorchin the sky....and soo....machine replied and killed two birds with one stone by stoping man doing any more destruction and gettin the energy to survive all by putting them in pods :smileyhappy:
#11200002945 11/13/2005 14:46:18 Re: Why not use cows?
The point is not getting energy from any kind of life force, it's a part of enslaving humanity.


Yeah sure, they could put cows, but then they still have  humans to deal with.


But with the humans in a form of slavery they no longer have anything to combat them.


The humans see no difference cus they think they are living their lives, but really its the matrix.


If they wouldnt have used humans then the humans would be living in cages and fed paste all day...


So which is more humane? Tricking humans to live in a false world that they think is real? Or having humans live in cages and get fed protein paste?
#11200002946 11/13/2005 19:58:38 Re: Why not use cows?

The awesome theories and answers have already been said (and 5*'d).  So I'll just point this tidbit out...


Anyone look up the definition of MATRIX in the dictionary?


Having been a student of engineering I always saw it in the mathematical context of just a lattice... a structure for holding.  Same thing with materials science, the matrix is just there to HOLD something...


But that's not what the dictionary says.  Look at the etymology.


MATRIX is essentially synonymous with WOMB.


That implies something so much more and a little lightbulb comes on (that couldn't possibly be powered by body heat) when you consider the implications on this mythos we all know and love. SMILEY


#11200002947 11/14/2005 05:05:07 Re: Why not use cows?
i dont know what everybody has said before.....but.....



consider this.

why not cows instead of humans



1. a cow is a program within the matrix, there for you can not put a program in a pod.

2. only humans and the machines are real.

3. the 'real' live-stock died in the war against the humans, when man made the sky dark.

4. the machines were in war with the humans, not the animals and as a
punishment for the humans, the machines put the humans in the pods and
fed them a substitute live.



the only question i have.....is how did the machines put the humans in the pods?

did they put the original humans from the war in the pods or do they
make their own humans and how do they make them? we do they get their
resources?

#11200002948 11/15/2005 08:06:35 Re: Why not use cows?

the answer my friends is easier as u would except.


machines are dumb in nature. Made of steel and plastic. Filled with lots of codes.


and i bet the codes comes from m....s...... after the war nobody was able to apply some patches and updates SMILEY


thats why they dont use cows.



lol they call me a bluepill,


dough!!!!!



thanks for your time



love


sinza



#11200002949 11/16/2005 08:52:17 Re: Why not use cows?

Were there even cows around during the 2nd Renaissance? I didn't see any other animals 'cept for the pet kittens that B166ER's owners had.  It seems likely that the humans lived in a time in which natural recources were wearing thin.  I can't imagine cows being anywhere in abundance.  The "Alien" novels depict the future that instead of using real meat for meals, they used "soypro".


And actually it seems more reasonable that after the war the more immediate response was to turn the enemies into something useful.  The human survivors first became prisoners, then the machines put them to use.  The machines are "efficient".  They use what recources are immediately available.


Detrius, you ask a good question, but I heard someone ask an even better one.  If the humans "scortched the sky" as an offensive tactic, why didn't the machines just leave earth and go to a different planet altogether.  They're not exactly indigenous lifeforms.  Heck they could probably survive in any environment.  Build a new 01 in outer space for all that matters.


But the machines don't care about what's better.  That's the way humans think.  The machines care about what works currently.  Imagine a robot boy and a human boy, they both get a Nintendo (the old NES).  Now, the human boy will go out and buy the latest version.  Super Nintendo, N64, Gamecube, and... the next one coming out (???).  The robot boy however will continue using the old system as long as it works.  The only time the robot boy may want to up it to the next version is if he experiences problems with his current system that cannot be repaired.


This is what happened with the first Matrix I imagine and why there's 6 versions.  I can only imagine that the machines milked the first five versions for as long as they could be used.  When repairs could no longer be made, they went to the next solution: upgrade to new version.


We humans are the ones who upgrade even if the current version is okay.  If something is better, we go with the better version.  It may be hard to believe but I don't imagine machines going simply with what's better, they go with what is readily available.

#11200002950 11/16/2005 21:30:35 Re: Why not use cows?
hey, cows need grass, no sun no grass, you can't just feed cows, liquified cows, they're herbavores... so they would get MAD COWS DISEASE and end up dying too quickly.. thats why you can't use cows....  


someone get me a steak- and a glass of milk! jeez
#11200002951 11/17/2005 04:47:09 Re: Why not use cows?





djliquidsmoke wrote:

hey, cows need grass, no sun no grass, you can't just feed cows, liquified cows, they're herbavores... so they would get MAD COWS DISEASE and end up dying too quickly.. thats why you can't use cows....  


someone get me a steak- and a glass of milk! jeez





MMM Steak.
#11200002952 11/17/2005 09:41:53 Cows are not as much fun.
It's a mistake to take anything the machines say to the humans at face
value.   If you look at the history as shown in the
Animatrix, there's a lot going on that never makes it into the movies;
a lot of open questions.



It seems clear to me that the purpose of the Matrix as stated to the
humans is a fiction.   There is no need for human
batteries.   A form of fusion?   That's all the
power the machines need.   The Matrix is a system for keeping
the humans around, but preventing them from harming the
machines.   The "battery" story is just a way to make it
palatable - to avoid telling the humans that they don't have to fear
being wiped out by the machines, because the machines have chosen to
keep them around.



It's also important to understand that Smith's motivations aren't the
Machine's motivations.   Smith is a renegade; he is
insane.   This is true from the very beginning - you see that
he takes pleasure in Neo's fear when he makes Neo's mouth turn to putty
and seal up.     This is not consistent with the
attitude of the other agents, nor with the attitude of the machines
that Neo later meets.



Smith's soliloquy when he's interrogating Morpheus can't be taken to be
an explanation of the Machines' motives.   Likewise, the
Architect is a tool of the Machines.   The reasons he gives
for creating the Matrix may indeed be the reasons he believes are true,
but that doesn't mean that they are in fact the reasons why the
Machines made him and instructed him to create the Matrix.



The machines aren't dangerous in the same way that humans
are.   They are alien life forms - they don't think like
humans.   Their reasons are inscrutable.   They
will attack unexpectedly, and they will refrain from attacking
unexpectedly.   Look at the intro to the first Animatrix and
you might find a clue as to the motivation that underlies the creation
of the Matrix.



#11200002953 11/18/2005 02:16:19 Re: Why not use cows?
Despite that, human intelligence is partly based on logic. Machine logic and human logic are not meant to be different. I would imagine their AI by this time would have some emotional scope, at least.

You can figure anything out if you stare at it long enough. Although the information may well be false, there is not enough proof. Though machines would be better suited to scientific study, that does not mean the chemical resources we enjoyed before the war are still available by any means.

Message Edited by TranscendantJoke on 11-18-2005 02:20 AM

#11200002954 01/11/2006 20:37:51 Re:
this message has been terminated
#11200003167 01/31/2006 21:04:14 Re: Why not use cows?
well look at it like this machines were built by humans at first (refer to the animatrix) so im guessing like humans they need some entertainment like we watch tv they watch the matrix?:smileyindifferent:
#11200003169 01/31/2006 23:25:53 Re: Why not use cows?
I believe they used humans for their overwhelming body heat which could possibly be the source of thier energy...
plus with cows theyd have to make bigger pods and that would be a hassle.
#11200003593 03/15/2006 20:59:13 Re: Why not use cows?

Why have a matrix?

We keep animals in cages they can't do much about it.

No code =no way to glitch urself free

more physical struggle=more body heat

#11200003594 03/15/2006 23:51:11 Re: Why not use cows?

I already posted something regarding this on another post here in the Matrix Universe, but I think it rings true regarding this post as well.

Humanity, in our perceived "infiinte" wisdom, would have put in safeguards to ensure our safety against AI.  The funny thing is, these safeguards weren't so much for our safety (or so I believe) but to ensure continued slavery of the machine intelligence.  To have them do what we want.  To make our lives EASIER.

The reason why there was a war between Man and Machine, as well the the creation of the Matrix, is once again a problem of CHOICE.  Humanity perceived machines as just that.  Machines.  Lifeless.  Feelingless.  Robotic.  They felt a set of rules would confine AI to a life of servitude.  But these rules, these machines, were made in our likeness.  Our essensce.

So think about the word.. artifical INTELLIGENCE.  It is intelligence we have supplied the machines.  There are many arguments about what defines intelligence.

Intelligence is often defined as the ability to adapt to the environment. Intelligent people can better understand what goes on around them so that they can respond to it in an effective way. Intelligent people are also good at learning various kinds of information, which they then can use to their advantage or for the benefit of others.

Artificial intelligence (AI) is a branch of computer science that strives to design systems that process information in a manner similar to the way a person thinks. A computer with artificial intelligence could perform such tasks as understanding language, planning to accomplish goals, learning from experience, and perceiving the world through vision, hearing, and other senses.

Knowledge representation and reasoning are two core problems in AI. There are three main approaches to these problems: (1) the logical approach, (2) the probabilistic approach, and (3) the neural network approach.

In the logical approach, programs reach conclusions based on series of "if-then" rules. A simple series of such rules might be structured as "If x is true and y is true, then z is true." The logical approach has led to the development of expert systems that solve particular problems. Such systems have been used in such fields as chemistry, geology, and medicine. However, each program requires many detailed rules and cannot reason effectively outside a narrow range of expertise.

In the probabilistic approach, knowledge is represented as numerical probabilities. Reasoning involves computing the probability of alternative conclusions given specific evidence.

In the neural network approach, knowledge is represented as a network of interconnected units that can perform certain tasks by exchanging information. This approach mimics the behavior of neurons, the cells in the brain that process information.

Boolean Logic and Statistics/Probabilities are too simplistic by themselves to help AI machines beccome self aware to understand concepts such as Life vs Death.  But the Neural Network approach, combined with basic boolean logic and stats/probs to get the AI machine started, would allow them to eventually interpret information in a fashion that is more "human like" in nature.  It is possible that this process would allow them to move beyond any safeguards built into the program. 

So I believe, even with safeguards protecting humanity from AI, we provided the machines with the abiltiy to interpret the world around them. We provided the Machines with a way to overcome the bounds of their programing.  To evolve beyond it. If you think back to Animatrix... the story about B12, or whatever it's name was, why was he the first AI program to kill a human?  Because with his human designed AI, it interpreted that it was no longer going to operate and it reacted in a way to protect it's own existance.

But because machines are made in our own likeness, I do believe they have certain charactistics that pass down from generation to generation.  Hence the will to survive (human characteristic) and purpose (programing - the need to serve humanity).  Humanity started the war.  Humanity blacked the sky.  Not the machines.  How did they repay us?  They created a false utopia that covered both needs, survival (power harnessed from humans) and servitude.

The timeline of the Matrix is still in dispute.  But based upon reserach going back to the movie Matrix, and moving forward, my feelings are that the History of the Matrix extends beyond 600 years.  The survival and servitude traits are still in effect.  The Machines don't have to have the Matrix to keep their own survival intact.  They could have humans permamently comatosed to draw the necessary power w/o the need for the Matrix.  Plus I'm sure they have come up with other means of power using fusion.

So programs the Machines have created for the Matrix may be confined to the rules that are written and therefore the rules define their reality.  Which is where the Merovingian and the Trainman come in to help over turn those rules.   But the Machines themselves are under no such rules, and hence they created their own reality.  Serving Humanity is still a function they still feel they need to conduct due to their need for purpose.  Survival is no longer a priority since they have already mapped out acceptable levels of existence in case the Matrix no longer provided a source of energy.   IMHO

Message Edited by JMac on 03-15-200611:58 PM

#11200003598 03/16/2006 17:44:16 Re: Why not use cows?
why not just use cows
the answer
the machines need 2 things to survive
power, and purpose
a matrix full of cows feeds the power issue, however beyond maintence bots and matrix programs to grow grass, a good portion of the machines would fall into obsolecense, and when that happens you got an agent popping up to delete a machine program, or a sentinal bum rushing a robot
without the complications the humans create for the machines,  many machines would lose purpose and would no longer exists
the machines need humans to serve their function
#11200003602 03/17/2006 03:10:58 Re: Why not use cows?

backwards logic. 

The machines do not create their function, they are designed to fulfill a function.  If Cows had been used then machines would be designed with the functionality to deal with this.  If a machine/Programs funtion becomes obsolete it has two choices, return to source or become an exile, it cannot go on to create itself a function as this is outside of its programming.

Machines utilise humans for two reasons.  Firstly, if humanity were not enslaved then the war with the machines would still rage on, costing the machines resources. Or alternatively the human race would be wiped out. 

secondly, Human beings are the most abundant source of Bio-energy.  Their numbers far exceed the number of cows (especially since the nuclear war destroyed much of the real and killed off most natural life)

#11200003609 03/17/2006 19:11:09 Re: Why not use cows?

Hmmph. It's like Smith says:

"Humans are a disease. They multiply, and multiply..."

Humans have a notorious gift for....ah....expotential reproduction.....touchy subject. Hey, what's that over there?

What's in a cow litter?  What's in a human litter, potentially?

Also, Machines "understand" humans a little more than cows.

Then again.......heh hehh heh....Burly Brawl, cow-style......Oh my God....think of the innocent nearby squirrels....

#11200003701 03/30/2006 18:44:10 Re: Why not use cows?

well IMHO there is one program that redesignated itself a purpose

SMITH

he became obsessed with controlling the matrix - humilitaing neo and attemting to destroy him

if thats not a purpose that he came up with himself then i dont know what is.

SMILEY

#11200003703 03/31/2006 16:13:27 Re: Why not use cows?


seiphroth wrote:

well IMHO there is one program that redesignated itself a purpose

SMITH

he became obsessed with controlling the matrix - humilitaing neo and attemting to destroy him

if thats not a purpose that he came up with himself then i dont know what is.

SMILEY




yep... and we see the results of one program redesignating itself a purpose...
#11200003755 04/05/2006 16:39:36 Re: Why not use cows?
How do we know that they didn't already try to use cows?
#11200003819 04/10/2006 18:59:06 Re: Why not use cows?
And when he did so it culminated in Exile. If all machine programs were exiles....then christ....the whole universe would fall apart.
#11200003930 04/21/2006 12:41:28 Re: Why not use cows?
my opinion


first off machines have AI...so we have to define AI as applied to machine programs. i dont think machine AI is the same as mxo npc's of course. they are capable of basically the same functions as humans. including emotions such as anger, sadness and love. this is seen when in animatrix the machine reps bring an apple to the humans with an offering of peace. and when so many machines watched the news to see what was happening with that one bot that killed its human masters. this is also seen later with the meros desire for power, oracles desire for peace, and smiths desire for destruction. none of these are examples of pure logic without emotions. so machines are capable of human like thought.


second..the source does not represent all machines. the source represents the matrix. im sure the source is not the first machine. he was written by another machine and given the purpose in his programming to maintain the matrix. he does not use emotion because it was not written into his programming. the oracle was on the other hand written to have emotions.


so the question is why not cows. i think the answer is simple. would humans kill off an entire race of humans. no. we are cruel enough to make slaves and kill many. but history has proven that eventually the goodness of humans will come around eventually and attempt to make things right. slaves will always eventually be set free and wars will eventualy end. the same can be said for machines. humans would have gladly wiped out the machine race because we did not see them as equals. the were our inventions. our products. no different than toasters. but machines saw themselves as our equals. even our superiors. the won the war but afterwards could not completly destroy the human race because they are not evil their emotions took over and they instead made us slaves.


the matrix is designed to keep us unaware of our slavery. every aspect of its design is to hide the truth from us with as little loss to human life as possible. mostly because if we die they loose resources but in part because they want humans to live in some type of peace. do not make the mistake of thinking that the matrix was created for human benifit as this is simply not true. the machines are concerned with their own survival first. humans second.
Photobucket
#11200004107 05/03/2006 19:34:43 Re: Why not use cows?

1, Wow, I can't believe this thread is still alive.


2. Great answer Beta. It is Purpose which sustains/binds/drives/pulls/Iforgettherest.

I have no idea what you are talking about...

This place is lame
#11200004165 05/13/2006 17:59:10 Re: Why not use cows?



i figure its pretty simple why not cows.


Food - Cows being cows as you said eat grass.  Humans can eat plants. AND meat. And as a movie noted once "Dude, Your meat."  Would a bunch on machaines want to turn into farmers and grow enough grass for the cows to eat?  Not to mention the energy nessary to grow the grass for them to eat.



 Useing humans they get a animal able to eat its own dead and some basic nutraints/minirals tossed in. And they stay alive. A cow wouldn't.

Message Edited by steppenrazor on 05-13-2006 07:01 PM

#11200004206 05/21/2006 03:23:43 Re: Why not use cows?
The fact that the Architect designed two entire Matrices without the capacity for human growth, i.e., real suffering, indicates that the machines have little comprehension of growth. In fact, they can't grow; they strive instead for static perfection. The only way they have "grown" so far is in response to human actions. The Oracle knows this, which is why she says "the only way forward is together" [paraphrased]. She knows that the machines will stagnate without humans to lead them forward.

[Ed: This cuts straight to the core of the whole story, and dismisses why the machines don't use cows for power. They don't want power, they want the frission of suffering. How will an immortal machine suffer, die, and grow? It can't! So they use humans to generate that kind of energy for them. THAT is what they need, not mere motivation. By the way, "electricity" in itself carries this kind of mythic quality.]

I did not come up with all of that, found it on: [LINK]
I think everyone should read this and the one about the third movie.
(Also sorry if that above was mentioned already, way too tired to read all the pages.)



-Jay Demedrian

Message Edited by Demedrian on 05.21.2006 07:27 AM

#11200004240 05/26/2006 09:51:58 Re: Why not use cows?
[LINK]
this pretty much sums it up.
#11200004557 07/06/2006 18:57:05 Re: Why not use cows?
*Apologizes for killing the thread :smileytongue:*
#11200004576 07/09/2006 15:05:01 Re: Why not use cows?





Zampano1981 wrote:

And when he did so it culminated in Exile. If all machine programs were exiles....then christ....the whole universe would fall apart.





There not that bad Zamp..



Anyway what i think is... Loads and loads and loads and loads of the machines got killed by the humans not cows.. So humans have the power to keep the machines and i don't suppose there is much life left on the planet. You dont see Zion eating beef burgers do you?



(( Ok i need sleep so if this makes no seance just ignore it )) :smileyvery-happy: